Should we insist that immigrants speak our language?

I was wondering if it would be possible for councils to provide someone to visit people in their homes to tell them about lessons, but then it crossed my mind that some husbands might not want their wives to learn English. Perhaps word of mouth from woman to woman would be the best way to spread information about lessons (and contraceptive and counselling services, etc.)

In the many years I worked in London schools I only met a very few women who did not really try to learn English if lessons were easy to fit into family life. There are lots of schemes to support women in their own homes..usually voluntary groups rather than council though. There are fewer 1st generation women now from indian sub continent..more form E Europe or Nth Africa who often also speak English or French.

JessM- yes I agree, and I think the British system is 1000s times better. In France for instance, immigrants are expected to become cameleons, and NO concessions are made, which I think is counter-productive in many ways. France secularity is often used as a way to discriminate. For instance, Muslim girls are not allowed to wear a scarf in school (we are not talking about the Hijab of Burka here, just a simple scarf)- so many girls have stopped going to school. No alternatives to the school menu are available, etc, etc.

We had a young woman from France living with us for almost 2 years. She was born in France, educated in France, did not wear a scarf- but despite her Degree in IT, she found it impossible to find a job in France, because of her Arabic look and name (her parents came from Morocco). After 2 years trying, she was offered a work-experience + English course for 6 months in England. She was amazed how respected and welcomed she was, both at work, at school and around town- not only as a woman, but as a person of arab origin. At the end of her 6 months, she was offered quite a senior job at the work placement firm, and accepted. (we got to know her because she became friends with a Swiss girl I'd found a job as an Au-Pair for). She bought herself a lovely little house and was happy as larry. Her sister in the meantime, couldn't find a job in France either, despite good qualifications, same for her brother. Her sister ended up having to do telephone sales, and was asked by the employer to change her telephone name to 'Claire Martin'- as her Morrocan name would 'have given a bad impression'. Disgusting really. Fatiha moved back to France to look after her elderly mother- and did manage to find a job due to the 3 years experience she got in the UK, and the fact she spoke fluent English. But even now, after about 8 years, she still feels the stigma.

There must be a half way solution- where people are positively respected for their culture, religion, etc - AND at the same time those people also positively respect the culture of the host country and the need to learn basic communicative language. (as said before, we are not talking grammatical finery here).

It will not get better until it becomes beneficial for the host country to have its immigrant population speaking the language. As long as they manage to work at the lowest paid jobs, and not strike or make difficulties then the education department won't come up with any cash to enable these people, especially those with some aptitude to learn to speak English.
As greatnan says these people are traumatised and after so much work doing two jobs even, they are too tired to learn anything if it means yet another bus journey to a school.

I've lived abroad and in the beginning even the shops are daunting. You don't recognise the cuts of meat as the butchering is different and so it goes on the list is endless. It is good that these people form their own societies and this enables them to survive and even to enjoy their new country.
Look at the USA. The Jews, the Irish, the Germans, the Italians. and so on. Most of them didn't speak English in the first generation.

If the host country is hostile then newcomers stick together and feel they are protecting themselves and identity by maintaining traditions/language & customs creating their own communities.

If a host community is welcoming then maybe immigrant groups would feel more confident to participate more in the life of their host community.

Hostility is not necessary for one to feel the need for the company of people from the same kind of culture and who speak the same first language as you. It is very tiring living in a country where everything is foreign. I was not in a tourist area of Thailand and loved feeling as though I was in the real Thailand as a result (the touristy areas could be anywhere in the tropics), but I and other westerners (the few there were) liked to get together just to relax. You can"t relax if you,re struggling to understand what's going on around you. I suspect that it is exactly the same for non-English speaking immigrants here. They form their own communities because it's easier, not because they feel hostility from the natives.

I have been appalled by the casual racism of many French people whom I considered to be intelligent and humane people. I am proud that Britain has come so far since the 1950's (No blacks, Irish or dogs!). We had almost every race, religion and colour working in the Inland Revenue in London, and I only ever heard one racist comment, which was by a higher caste Indian who did not want to work with someone of a lower caste.
I have not found any hostility in France myself, but then I am white and not seeking work.

Exactly - I think it is sometimes difficult for us to understand what it feels like NOT to be welcomed. I remember a fantastic documentary in Germany, where German kids from the local primary were dressed and made-up to look like turkish immigrants, then sent out (with careful supervision) into the community, local shops, etc. It was a life changing experience for them as they realised how people's attitudes changed towards them.

Bags, agreed, my head used to hurt when I first lived in the UK- despite the fact the move was MY choice and I really wanted to learn, not just the language, but culture, history, etc. But I am sure Nanaej is right- if people are positive and welcoming about your 'difference/s' it is much more conducive to a more positive attitude back - and the desire to learn and join in. This is the same for all social groups- a negative first contact makes you want to draw back and escape to safety (of your own group).

There was a programme about a black man and a white man who were very cleverly made up to look like their opposite number. The differences they found in people's attitude to them was very illuminating.
The younger generation give me hope - apart from the idiots in the extreme right wing parties they do genuinely seem not to notice such differences, or not to be affected by them. I notice that there are several interracial couples in show business and sport which can only help.
I fear we still have a way to go in eradicating racism from some police forces, as evinced by the number of times a young black businessman in an expensive car will be stopped for no good reason.

I should have said that I was agreeing with Gracesmum when I said I did not like the wording of the thread. I do appreciate that Printmiss did not intend it to be read as a criticism of the parents in question.

As said before, the impression given is that it is a problem related to 'poorer less educated' immigrants. Here in Zurich/Zug area and Geneva/Lausanne, there is concern about those very rich ex-pats who never bother to learn the language and live paralel lives, with all the kids in private international schools and completely and voluntarily 'shut-out' of local life.

To some extent, this is due to the temporality of their jobs and the understandable attitude 'we will be sent away by our business soon- so what is the point of learning, making friends, etc' which I do understand to some extent. Although I am sure that wherever I went to live, I'd have a good stab at getting to know some locals, learn and try about culture, food, etc, and of course, some language. Some of those expats even get all their food delivered from the UK- and refuse to even try 'some of that foreign muck!' (sic).

I remember one member on an expat forum who had all her food delivered from Tesco in England! How sad to live in a foreign country and not even try to appreciate the different flavours and methods of cooking. I have learned to use creme fraiche and mustard to make a sauce, instead of Bisto granules! (I did bring a tin back, though, just to make cottage pie or corned beef hash!)
IN England, it seems to have worked the other way, and nearly every town and even village will have its Indian, Vietnamese, or Chinese take-away. France is slowly embracing other cuisines but of course the French remain convinced that their cooking is the best in the world. We do have sections in the supermarkets for Spanish, Mexican and Eastern ingredients and even American, which, bizarrely, has Hobnobs, Birds' Custard and PG Tips.

Creme fraiche and mustard! Gorgeous with chicken, you're making my mouth water and my borborigni resound round the room!

Very sad accounts of how France handles these things. A good way of storing up trouble.
I think ideally you need multiculturalism while fostering intercultural links and supporting the learning of English. It is easier just to allow Bangladeshi mothers not to mix and not to learn English, than to do the opposite. This does not help the children to grow up to fully participate in society at all levels.
We have lots of other immigrants who, because they are not having this continuous stream of non english speaking parents, are integrating much more rapidly in so many ways. In Mk we have had large numbers of Africans, Poles and a load of other cultures. Not many west indians. As in most urban schools in Britain, every class is a mixture of backgrounds. I walked past a local reception class, out for a walk, the other day and they were maybe 50% white and the other half a total mixture.
Don't' we have the highest proportion of inter-racial marriages of any country in the world?

As I have dual nationality- the chicken gravy today included mustard and creme fraiche AND bisto chicken granules, lol!

Between OH's family and mine, over the last 3 generations, we have 3 races, and 7 nationalities. True mongrels. Of course for grand-children we had another race and another 2 nationalities- and yet they look typically British (whatever that means).

NOT BISTO!

A little maggi chicken stock or veal stock if you must! But BISTO [shaking head sadly] emoticon!

If you're going with greatnan, keep an eye on her please?

I don't trust her let loose without a keeper!

Don't worry, she is worse than any keeper (nag, nag, nag...). Just because she is ten years younger than I am she thinks I am a mad old woman. We will be snorkeling either from safe beaches or from a dive boat, and they always keep an eye on you.

So might the sharks!

jeni - some people need 'nagging' honestly

Will you stop talking about sharks, PLEASE!

I'm sure if any shark met greatnan it would regret it!she scares me to bits!

What IS Bisto? [snooty emoticon]

I have never felt the need for it!

My corned beef hash is fine without it.

Moi? Scary? I am a sweet white-haired old lady.

Ahhh.......

yes! Just like me!

But you're more cuddly, jeni