Should we insist that immigrants speak our language?

jinglgrumptastic strikes again.

No worse than all the boasting charities do when you think about it.

Anyway, people want to know.

Greatnan Sound sense. ditto

Charities have to publicise to keep on getting money.

Councils should be expected to spend taxes sensibly, as, in this case, they are.

They probably publicised it because people all over the country are genuinely concerned for the child's welfare, and want to know what's going to be done for her and her family. There doesn't have to be an ulterior motive!

No. No ulterior motive. Nothing to laud them about either.

Was just going to say thank you for telling us, bigmomma, when GN crashed on me. I can feel another plea to Tech coming on.

jings, a further thought for your consideration: councils have to publicise good stuff they do too if they want to be voted in again. That's how democracy works.

Message deleted by Gransnet.

Here in Switzerland, and in France, Spain and Tuscany, etc, there are 1000s of Brits who have lived here for yonks and barely speak a few words of the local language. On the expat Forums the main questions seem to be 'where can I find a plumber, a doctor, a vet, a solicitor, a carpenter, a hairdresser, etc, etc, etc, who speaks English?'.

My take on this as that it is very basic courtesy and respect to make the effort to learn basic communication in the language of a country you've chosen to live in. And of course it makes all the difference when it comes to good relationships with neighbours, tradesmen, local authorities, hospitals, and so on. I cannot fathom how anybody would go and live abroad and not make that effort. Many rich British expats here live in a bubble and a parallel society, which puts locals backs up and also mean that they pass by so many wonderful opportunities. Many ask on an expat Forum where they can find a job where they only speak English, for Degrees, MBAs and PHDs in English, etc.

At least many of the very poor immigrants who come from war torn zones and very poor areas of the world have an excuse - as many have not benefited from a good education. Many of the BAngladeshi parents where I used to teach couldn't read or right and spoke only Silhetti - which is a dialect of Bengali.

I can understand that people from war torn zones may be traumatised and need special help but those from poor areas of the world coming over here have little excuse not to learn our language; after all children learn to speak a language. OK it's certainly harder for adults but an effort should be made if they wish to live here and make use of our services. Why do they come if they're not prepared to contribute?

YOu might find there was a catch 22 - lack of opportunities provided to learn English. And if there are opportunities it might be difficult for people to get to them. Or even find out about them, if they don't speak English.
I just searched on ESOL classes in my local area, spread across the city. There are a few run by the local authority, £180 for a short course - which is not going to get you very far - 12 classes. To track these down on the internet, without knowing that you should search on ESOL is not easy. Then you are asked to phone for an assessment!

I find most people who expect immigrants to learn English don't speak any foreign language at all themselves. It takes years to learn enough to carry out a decent conversation. Europeans speak English but it didn't fly to them in a dream. They slogged at it at school for up to 8 years.

As to the immigrants there has to be good basic teaching to teach them just enough to get through the day and to know where their bus or train is going to.
As far as I can see there are no plans for this kind of teaching nor any funding. I could teach them but am now too tired even at the thought of it.

I know from my brother who lives in Germany that all those from Spain or Greece who had the good luck to speak some German have now got jobs there. They are short of people for engineering jobs. We should be looking that our children learn some sort of foreign language, as the second foreign language is much easier and who knows where future prosperity lies. Not necessarily in the English speaking world

When I was working full time I visited many countries and made a point of being able to at least say a few words in the language - hallo, goodbye, how are you, where are the toilets, please may I have....., thank you etc etc.
I used to be fairly fluent in French [I taught it for a bit] and could get by in Spanish and German but unfortunately if you don't use it you lose it. I can still read bits in French and Spanish but alas I would need a long revision course to get me up to speed.
I'm in the throes of learning Welsh via the BBC; it's excellent - and free. There may be similar English courses. Of course one has to have a PC and be a little bit enterprising rather than waiting for it to happen spontaneously. My belief - and it's what I've also found in life - if you want something in life you have to make the effort. Sitting in a heap doesn't get you very far.

I may have missed a point here -possibly several, as I have just skimmed through this thread, but I think the problem lies in the title -"insist" . Should it not read "Should we (not) give immigrants every possible help to learn to speak the language of their host country?"
If people refuse to even try (cf old-style colonial Brits in the days of Empah)then citizenship may be withheld. I think the best example of integration is the USA where everybody was an immigrant once and there is a glorious patchwork of culture, linguistic idiom and history united by a common identity.

Goldengirl - do you not think that somebody who has left their home, their country, their culture and probably most of their family might be somewhat traumatised? Why do you think immigrants don't contribute? As far as I can see, hospitals, care homes and airports would collapse without immigrant labour, either first or second generation.
You obviously have an ear for languages and have had the opportunity to learn several - good for you. Many people do not share your talent and, as has been said, may find it very difficult to access English lessons.
I speak as an immigrant into France, who has been met with nothing but kindness and tolerance of my less-than-perfect French. I would like to think immigrants to Britain are treated with equal compassion and helpfulness.

I have to say that I do not like the tone of the title of this thread. If we 'insist' that immigrants learn English, what sanctions are proposed for those who don't/can't?

As I've said before, some people just can't manage to learn another language. My very intelligent Mum, then in her 60s, could not manage French when my sister moved to Paris.

Some older immigrants/refugees are not even literate in their own language, and learning another from scratch is just beyond them.

Some people have an aptitude for languages, some just manage to muddle though, and some simply can't do it. I have an aptitude for languages, so when I want to have empathy with those who are the opposite, I just think about the struggles I had at school in maths and physics. It was the stuff of nightmares. I was allowed to drop physics and substitute German. Phew!! As for maths - I managed to scrape through my O level with a minimum pass, after loads of tutoring from my very mathematical brother - who struggled with languages.

We are all different.

Good points Greatnan and Joan. The 'insist' is definitely 'de trop'. I can see both sides- but I'll reiterate that making the effort (and yes it is easier for some than for others) to learn basic communicative language (never mind grammatical errors and the past subjunctive, blabla) is a basic form of respect, and essential for every day survival and some form of integration.
There are some immigrants, who from day one join a parallel immigrant society, be it an expat bubble in Zurich or Spain, or some of our towns in the UK- without any intention of learning the language- which is detrimental to all in the end.

One should be able to continue to maintain ones language and culture when abroad, and yet, one also has a responsibility for getting to understand the culture of the country you choose to move to, as well as learn some of the language, sufficient for day to day interaction and living.

My French has been enough to enable me to live happily in France for ten years but I had worked in Monaco and Brussels before I came here. I have never mixed with fellow Brits and I haven't met any in this area, so speaking French is an absolute necessity. However, I am not sure I will ever understand the nuances of French culture and politeness. I probably use 'vous' where 'tu' would be appropriate, such as with young people, but I think that is safer than being over-familiar. At first, I was quite hurt when people I regarded as friends did not invite me into their homes for a long time, until I realised that it is just not the French way. I still get confused about how many kisses to give to people on a first introduction!
I think it would have been more important if I had still had children living with me, who would need to be integrated much more than I do.
I am against making anything obligatory unless it is absolutely necessary for health and safety reasons (like seat belts).

We have a long record here of fostering multiculturalism - at the expense of integration maybe?
It is also natural for immigrants to associate with people from a similar background because that is where they feel safest and most at home. Just down the road we have the equivalent of a Bangladeshi village. All started when one brave chap got off the train, walked down the road and set up a curry house on the corner of a 19th century terrace. So if you live in such a village, you are insulated and supported to some extent and there is reduced need to speak English.
Another related issue is the continued practice of marrying cousins from Bangladesh. Means that these communities have a slow but steady inflow of non-English speakers. This helps to maintain the separate cultural identity and use of first language.
We find that the children of this community either do very well or rather poorly in our school with few in the middle. Other immigrant groups, such as Chinese and Indians tend to produce high achievers.

agreed, jura. I did not find learning Thai easy, though learning the alphabet and being able to read simple things like where buses were going and what foods were available wasn't very difficult, with a bit of application. However, I found that my pathetic struggles to understand and speak the language were much appreciated by the Thais.

Multiculturalism does not mean that one does live a parallel life - it is quite possible to maintain one's own culture, language, religion, food, way of dress, etc, etc AND at the same time make an conscious effort to understand the host culture and learn basic communicative language. It is not about 'either/or' - but about both. And although I agree there should be no 'compulsion' and ensuing punishment for non compliance, learning the language should be very positively encouraged.

I think most of us are agreed that it would be a good idea to make access to English lessons much easier and also to find some way of letting non-English speakers know about them. Perhaps via the children's schools, or the doctor's surgery?

Agreed granjura - but the emphasis in Uk has been on supporting multiculturalism (e.g. offering leaflets in lots of languages) rather than encouraging integration (e.g. spending money on providing language classes.)

jessM agree to a point but unless you have a particular level of English understanding to access the school admission system, rules and regs re registering with doctors etc so leaflets with several languages are important so immigrant families can access local services. At one school where I worked we ran classes for parents who did not read English well to explain all our events and school systems...it is very tricky getting a letter asking you to dress your child as a Victorian / to come in 'mufti', dress as book character etc etc!