Repairing estrangement

Bibbity when I estranged a few people I knew growing up said to me that there was always something off about my mum and they didn't like her even though she hadn't directly done anything to them.

When I also look at the amount of friendships she lost and people who vanished from our lives.

Then I look again at the only close and personal relationships she retains and the problems I see in those people.. I guess people always see through them eventually and they can only have honest relationships with other toxic people and enablers

That's interesting Violetsky as I've had similar. I always knew she wasn't like other Mums but couldn't put a finger on it.

My Mum has also had a lot of people vanish from her life and she did estrange her own parents and siblings, too. The only lasting friendships she has are with people who have severe MH issues that are worse than hers, that make her feel needed and superior. I definitely think you're right, its sad, but accurate.

I understood your point Bibbity per se, just couldn't see its relevance in response to what I said! . You didn't highlight my name so I assume you were making a more general (and perfectly valid) point rather than responding to me

Obviously no assumptions can be made that that is the case in every scenario where one party says they don't know, but it is certainly one aspect for consideration in estrangement

Except! Many claimI In other word liars. Unless perhaps not of sound mind. A lot can be told about people the way they respond to others valid feelings, not to rubbish them is a start, to listen to what they are saying is also useful.
No one easily goes into estrangement unless very immature or bitter, it’s hard to do it and has to be when all other avenues have been sought. Not an easy thing for anyone to do but especially a mother there is that bond that no one else has, we carried tgem, nurtured them and most of all lived them.

Sorry for typos, words just alter after you’ve pressed send?

Violetsky and OnwardandUpward
My mother didn’t have any friends, we lived on an estate, built post war and full of families, the woman would all be outside chatting, not my mother, she never joined in.
I think maybe she wanted to, but didn’t know how.
My gran was the opposite, very active in the chapel and the town’s woman guild, lots of friends, regular whist drives, I don’t know why she didn’t try to involve my mother.
I too have a few occasions where other mums have either stepped in to help me in some way, and one memorable occasion, where I did something bad, but no one told my parents, I got a little chat from one of the other mothers, but I remember them saying no need to say anything to my mother as long as I didn’t do it again.
I wonder if I overthink things, is there any point in hanging on to these memories?

Some may be lying but I don't think that is a given Allsorts. I think that there are so so many variations on a theme and every case is made up of different personalities, different experiences and different dynamics.

You are right about listening and either party can feel un-listened to, depending on how the estrangement happened, the causes stated or not, heard or not.

And you are right it is not a decision made lightly, although some may feel it is from what they are presented with.

Allsorts
I don’t, and never have had a bond with my mother.
So I suppose it was easier for me to walk away
I always felt that if I had just one happy memory of being with her, I wouldn’t have been able to do it, I would have clung on to those memories. But for me it’s been nothing but relief.

Sara1954 I think it's fine to be ok that someone else's Mother stepped in at a time your own did not. It shows that people noticed you, cared and knew she was not present. I also had input from other peoples Mums.

My own Mother's Mother was emotionally closed. Their relationship was fake polite and visits were time limited.

As a child, I was devastated when we "lost" half our family spanning a few generations because my Mother estranged from them. This is partly why I favor LC over NC.

I’ve never prevented my children seeing my mother, two of them were young adults anyway, and my husband took the youngest to visit.
They still visit, my oldest visits quite frequently, she was always the golden child, she hasn’t got much interest in the others or their children, but they still go up every few months.

"Except! Many Claim! In other words liars" I agree Allsorts with what you say about not rubbishing what others say.

You have to know someone and know about their circumstances before making that judgement, and even then there may well be aspects of their life that you know nothing about.

If someone says they don't know why they've been estranged, whose to say that they are being dishonest. I don't understand why this is often a reoccurring theme in these discussions.

No one suggests that EAC who say they tried to talk to their parent(s) about the relationship, to try and improve things prior to making the decision is claiming to have done so, and rightly so.

LC can certainly prevent children from losing out on half of their family which, as you know from your own experience Onward can be devastating.

Even NC, as yours shows Sara can be kept between two people and not allowed to impact on the relationships of others.

Is it wrong to point out to someone that there are elements in their behaviour, the things they do and the way they treat others that point to possible characteristics they have that might explain why they have been estranged by a loved one?

If you see someone constantly putting down, harassing or ridiculing someone who may come across as weaker or more sensitive and available to take their own problems out on unfairly, is it wrong to point that out?

Is it wrong to point out that there is no justification for that, even if sometimes someone else's truths are hard to hear if there is an element to what they say that makes past behaviour highlighted as wrong so they must be silenced by any means available.

This is why my mother has lost so many friendships over the years. Why she estranged others for periods of time, because they have questioned her behaviour, her narrative and her motives.

This is why people who remain in her life think awful things about me and why she would very carefully wind me up to public displays of anger at her so that she could point the finger and say "see".

She has surrounded herself with those who believe her behaviour is justified and her carefully created story of who I am and she knew exactly what to do and say to push my buttons.

The only way of repairing estrangement would destroy her entire life really wouldn't it so there was never anything I could do to fix that.

I have realised part of the reason I am accepting of bullying within my workplace is that I have reverted to type and I am pretending everything is ok when it really, really isn't. I am being bullied by an aggressive man who shows the same traits as my estranged Father. Behaviours are ingrained

I'm so sorry Janejudge

I think bullies, whether covert or overt all easily recognise a person who has had those buttons installed in childhood. They recognise a person who they can easily use as a scapegoat for all their needs.

The worst part is, trying to point out their bad behaviour will only lead to them crying victim and twisting everything into knots. This often ends up making you look bad, the real victim.

You know what he is, you can become stronger. You have so much he doesn't, a real and genuine happy life. Don't let him hurt you any more.

That’s what I meant, DiamondLily.

That's terrible Janejudge especially as it reminds you of your estranged father's behaviour.

I wouldn't worry that because of your past, that somehow makes you identifiable as a victim. You wont be the only one targeted by this odious individual, there could well be others in your workplace who like you, are "pretending everything is ok when it really, really isn't".

Have you spoken to anyone about this? Bullies often make the mistake of thinking that others, apart from those they are victimising, don't see what's going on, but you may be surprised at how many have witnessed his behaviour toward you, even though they haven't mentioned it.

If you can find the courage to speak out about this, I'm certain that you'll find this to be the case.

I hope you'll be able to address this and put a stop to it. You did so with your father by estranging him, I'm sure you can do it again.

Having read and commented on several estrangement threads here, I think the reason that some commenters question the validity of “I don’t know what I did to become estranged” is because of what the OP actually posts. So to use this OP as an example - the very first post states outright that they have been accused of doing things they didn’t do. Then goes on to say - but I don’t know what I did.

Just because the OP’s recollection of events doesn’t match the reception from their family doesn’t negate the fact that they do in fact know what the issue is. They may disagree and not accept that the allegations are true, they may challenge the recollection of events - but it doesn’t change the fact that they are aware of what the perceived actions have been.

This is a common thread I have seen on these posts. A poster is (whether true or not) has been accused of something and rather than accept that, because they don’t agree with it they then invalidate this as the “real reason”. It might not be a good enough reason to estrange for them, but it obviously is for their family member.
When I finally estranged my late MIL it was because my own mental health was being so badly affected by her. It had been death by a thousand papercuts for over a decade and I just couldn’t cope with it any more. The final incident was so trivial that taken alone I’m sure she and anyone else looking at that situation in isolation would have come to the conclusion that I was completely off my rocker, but it was cumulative for me. And I had told her many times over many years that I was struggling with her behaviour- she couldn’t change because she “didn’t do anything wrong and couldn’t understand” what my problem was. But she did know - she may have chosen (either consciously or unconsciously) to disagree with with me, totally invalidating what she’d been told hundreds of times in hundreds of ways by numerous people in her life.

TBF Lolo Allsorts (the OP) has, as you have said yourself said that she had been accused of doing something she hadn't done.

Being falsely accused of behaviour, and having that false accusation given as a reason for estrangement, is not being told why you've been estranged is it.

If you don't accept something you have been accused of because it never happened, how on earth can that be viewed as an invalidation? If the person estranging has what they consider to be valid reasons for their decision, then why not say so? Why 'make something up' or refuse to give a reason(s).

Once again it appears that we are going over familiar, and unhelpful ground where an EP who says they don't know why they've been estranged is having it suggested they are not telling the truth.

It looks as if you had a difficult relationship with your m.i.l. leaving you with no choice but to estrange for the sake of your own mental health.

I would be very upset if anyone responded to your post with questioning disbelief.

It truly is depressingly familiar ground. People’s recollections of events may differ but it’s also important to acknowledge that some people lie.

Indeed Iam of course people's recollections may differ but there has to be some kernel of truth/fact in that recollection because without that, it isn't a recollection, it's a lie.

It doesn't make sense to me either.

Reasons have been given, if I didn't agree with those reasons I would need to acknowledge them to have the difficult conversation about why my child thought that. I'd need to listen to them. As much as recollections of events can vary, how would I know whose was right of we both believed differently? Maybe the truth would be somewhere in the middle but if I outright denied them or said my AC was lying that dialogue would be gone and so would hope

I don’t doubt for a second that OP is telling the truth as she remembers it that she has been falsely accused. But I do stand by the fact that false or not - those accusations are why she has been estranged. She can choose to accept that or not but she has been told why. It’s that old saying there’s 3 sides to a story - mines, yours and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
That’s the “truth” as far as the person estranging is concerned - that’s their truth, their recollection, their reason.
So to go back to the original “i don’t know what I did” - you do know, you just don’t accept it or think it’s a good enough reason. And that’s normal and rational, but from the other side - there’s no conspiracy, just because someone refuses to accept the reasons given or their validity doesn’t negate that those are in fact the reasons for the person who has had enough.
Getting stuck on “valid reasons” although I understand the need to justify the situation, is the issue. Who decides what’s valid? In a situation like this - it’s the person who walks away. It can be a big blow up, abuse, or like in my case over the daftest issue (yet again ignoring dietary issues for my son - giving him liquorice).
Example - I wholeheartedly believe that you insulted me, you’ve done it before and every time I see you I feel insulted. So I’m just not going to see you anymore.
You say, I’ve never insulted you, i have no idea what you mean - this is ridiculous.
These are feelings - you can’t tell me that you didn’t hurt my feelings because they’re my feelings. My truth here is that you’re nasty, your truth is that I’m a liar.
If I decide I’m done having my feelings hurt and cut you off that’s valid for me. You deny it happened so it’s not a valid reason for you - but you cannot deny you know the reason. You don’t agree, don’t accept but it doesn’t change the fact that I have explained from my perspective why I am done.

Lolo81
When I finally estranged my mother it must have seemed trivial in the extreme to everyone.
But she was being unreasonable and and selfish, all what about me, me, me.
She also knew we were having a lot of problems at home, which had meant we had to spend some time in an hotel, everything was chaos, but it was still all about her.

I agree that "false or not" reasons given are the reasons for the estrangement but will say again, if the reasons given are false then the person being estranged does not know why they have been.

Lolo what you say makes sense. However I think there is a difference between "knowing that an estrangement has happened because of something described" and "accepting that that particular thing happened" if you don't believe it did.

I am not specifically referring to the examples you gave above; more to the OP saying "I was accused of things I hadn’t done but obviously she sees it differently". So yes, the OP does know what caused the estrangement but does not accept that that particular thing happened. She does however accept that her daughter sees it differently, and acknowledges that she * must have done something*. She appears to want to talk about it and try to resolve the situation as Violet said would be her own way forward but that opportunity has gone for whatever reason which we cannot be clear about.

There is also a difference I think between the type of examples that you gave regarding yourself and your MIL and specific accusations eg of theft (a case on here a while ago where a mother was accused of stealing her DILs ring and this caused estrangement.) In the second example the mother knows 100% whether she stole the ring or not, and if she didn't she isn't going to apologise for it because she knows it is a false accusation.

A Minefield of variations on a theme sadly.