I was surprised to read recently that the selection process was biased against girls. I had just been assuming that one either passed and went to grammar school or didnt pass and didnt go to grammar school.
Then I read recently that less boys were passing than girls and so what often happened was they told the "lowest pass level" girls that they hadn't passed (even though they had) and gave their places to boys who hadn't passed instead. It was more important to them to have that 50/50 girl/boy ratio than to be fair and, if you won a pass = you got it.
I had wondered why it felt like there was a bit of a kerfuffle after I sat the 11 plus. It boiled down to I'd said to my parents "If I don't pass the 11 plus - I want to go to the Convent School. I'm not going to go to the Secondary Modern". (Yep....I had no idea that would have cost money - and that would mean my mother wouldnt have been able to put as much money as she did into savings). I also had no idea my brother would certainly not have passed the exam when it was his turn.
I did pass - but I must have been one of the ones with a lowest level pass and the school were planning on giving my entrance pass to a boy who hadnt passed!!!!!!
Apparently the reason was because more girls passed than boys and they wanted 50% boys and 50% girls there - and hence they put in that unfair little clause.
It's a wonder I managed to pass in the first place - given I was an armed forces child and I think it was 7 primary schools I had in total because of that. So I remember my mother did go down to the school to "talk to" them - in other words tell them, I guess, to give my entrance pass to me and not someone less deserving that happened to be a boy.
I was more preoccupied at the time with the way I seem to recall children who passed had been promised a present - like a pushbike. So I was expecting a pushbike too (though I hadnt been promised anything at all) - and wasnt given a present at all for my pass.
We took 8 O levels, as the school considered this to be enough to give you a broad education and universities never asked for more than 7 ot 8 O levels. I know of schools where pupils had to sit 10 O levels, but surely studying so many subjects could put too much pressure in pupils and many would probably flunk a subject or two they weren't interested in.
Allira as far as the 60s goes I can only speak of my own experience. The O level option list at my school could allow you to drop one or 2 of the 3 sciences (that's not acceptable now btw), you could do history or geography or both. Some people did Art, some Home Economics, others did neither. I think you had to choose from about 8 different combinations of subjects.
Chardy
Allira as far as the 60s goes I can only speak of my own experience. The O level option list at my school could allow you to drop one or 2 of the 3 sciences (that's not acceptable now btw), you could do history or geography or both. Some people did Art, some Home Economics, others did neither. I think you had to choose from about 8 different combinations of subjects.
We had to do at least one science, I chose physics as the biology and chemistry teachers I had were a real let down and bored me with the subjects. You were also encouraged to take at leasrt one language and had to chose either history or geography, or both. Being a grammar school, there were no craft subjects( secondary moderns for those), but you could take a subject called technology, which was like applied physics.
I attended a school reunion for my first school- I've outlined the odd 13 plus system Cumberland had until 1984- which was a mixture of a secondary modern and a comprehensive with no sixth form and mostly CSE subjects. One of the comments that was raised was how snobbish some people became when they went to the grammar school and how working class kids who transferred were sometimes looked down on. A couple of us who lived in rented housing had this experience.
Mine was a Catholic grammar school.
It had a mix of families - lots of poorer and some wealthier.
Lots of Irish.
I don't remember any Muslim girls but we had some anglicans and several Jewish girls (whose families chose our school over other local grammar schools) one who I was friends with.
I think we were quite a mixed bunch.
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But surely most grammar schools were single sex?
NotSpaghetti
But surely most grammar schools were single sex?
In some areas they were, others not, probably due to the cost of maintainting two seperate schools. The grammar schools local to me were always mixed, even when they were fully selective.
Oh that's interesting.
The ones I knew (three of them) had both boys and girls schools operating separately (so six in total) -two had the boys and girls on entirely different sites.
growstuff
All the grammar schools in my area were single sex, so there was no question of giving more places to boys to make sure there was a 50/50 split.
Same here. There were no co-educational grammar schools in our county , they were all single-sex.
My kids were educated in Scotland where all state secondary schools are mixed, comprehensive ( non-selective) and run by the local council (no "academies").
butterandjam
growstuff
All the grammar schools in my area were single sex, so there was no question of giving more places to boys to make sure there was a 50/50 split.
Same here. There were no co-educational grammar schools in our county , they were all single-sex.
My kids were educated in Scotland where all state secondary schools are mixed, comprehensive ( non-selective) and run by the local council (no "academies").
Scotland was the first part of the country to ditch grammar schools and had completed the process by the early seventies. A lot had to with which party was running the LEA: Labour ones were far quicker to move to comprehensivs, which explains why grammar schools disappeared first in Scotland, South Wales and the North East. The areas where the handful of grammar schools remain are mostly Conservative.
Bumping up this thread, I think grammar schools gave working class pupils a chance to have a very good education, similar to a public school, for free. If a pupil was determined enough and the school encouraged them, then they could attend a top university.
I passed my 11+ in Wales in 1954.I was just 10. This was quite normal in Wales at the time. If it was thought you could pass you could try at 10. I was due to go to an all girls grammar school
However that summer we moved to England and I went to a co-ed grammar. Equal numbers of girls and boys.
When I went to college I had to do an extra year as I was to young to take the final examination.
Calendargirl
Also, my DD was one of the oldest in her year, this went against her I believe, as we were told children with ‘summer’ birthdays were given more leeway.
I heard the same too Calendargirl.
One of DH's university friends passed the 13+. He was from Wolverhampton? Did that happen everywhere?
DH's school was a Direct Grabt Grammar Schhol. Free for people who lived in the catchment area and who passed 11+.
DH lived out of catchment so his parents paid privately for him and his younger brother to attend.
I do wonder what the point of grammar schools is nowadays.
PaperMonster2
I do wonder what the point of grammar schools is nowadays.
It's harder to prove now as they've been gone for over 50 years in most parts of the country. Most comprehensives have ditched the mixed ability classes that gave them a bad reputation in the seventies and eighties. Now they seem to stream pupils by their ability and concentrate more on vocational education for less academic pupils.. Can't really see any point in bringing back a type of school that has been gone for such a long time.
Grammars did have a point in the 1950s and 60s when they were seen as offering a similar education to a public school for free, and this helped poorer pupils achieve a good education.
growstuff
All the grammar schools in my area were single sex, so there was no question of giving more places to boys to make sure there was a 50/50 split.
My area too, which might also be your area? Not many counties have Grammar Schools, but ours have NEVER been co-ed.
“Astitchintime
Calendargirl
Also, my DD was one of the oldest in her year, this went against her I believe, as we were told children with ‘summer’ birthdays were given more leeway.
I heard the same too Calendargirl.”
It wasn’t so much “leeway” as having a small handicap, after all, my daughter, for example born on 30th August, was almost an entire year younger than some of her peers.
Cumbrianmale56 I actually work in one. My child is at secondary still so it’s interesting to see what little difference there is between both types of school. Although my child’s school has non-academic pupils and provides education for them accordingly.
I went to a selective church school so not sure where that would have sat in the grammar/sec mod system
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