Is Gransnet leaning more to the left?

Yes Cossy it really is absolutely fine.

Sago

Whitewavemark2

Please!! Not transgender again! A single issue that frankly has been done to death,

This IMO is shouting someone down, it is a serious issue for some people.

Why can we not raise this subject?

You are free to totally ignore my post. That was simply a knee-jerk reaction to something I find boring.

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why Tory supporters or LibDem would feel uncomfortable posting here.

I would very respecting remind you of all the times, when the conservatives were in power, of the amount of “stick” us left-leaners received from you “righties”.

We didn’t resort to saying we felt too scared to post, or that there was a pile on.

Come on folks, we’re all educated, experienced grown ups, and from what I’ve read from all sides, every single one of us is perfectly capable of sticking up for ourselves and our beliefs.

resoectfully

Oh fgs, respectfully

Galaxy

Do you think reform might lock women up with men or call rapists she, or support womens faces being entirely covered, we wouldnt want that kind of thinking anywhere near positions of power would we.

we wouldnt want that kind of thinking anywhere near positions of power would we

No, 'we' don't. Which is why I lost all respect for Starmer when he appeared not to understand the biology of women. Unfortunately, his position on the matter wasn't revealed before he became leader of the LP, when Marr tripped him up during that interview.

So is the answer then to accept a party that seems to attract men with an alternate form of misogyny?

Whitewavemark2

In truth people tend to be a mixture of beliefs, but are usually able to identify with a political party.

I’m a mixture I think of 6&7 with a bit of 5 thrown in😊

I agree

Oreo 9:12

The goady 'some people' (or 'a certain type of left wing person') comment is exactly what I was getting at last night. There is nothing there to argue against, as there is no example of it in action, no reference to who is supposedly doing it. Worse, if people ask for clarification they are told that their 'hot denials' were to be expected, so not only can they not ask for an explanation of the accusations, but they can't deny them either.

We've seen this on here before - often if someone replies and refutes the accusation, she is then accused of making things 'all about her', as even though the dig was obviously targeted and personal, not naming anyone means that this can be denied. It's tiresome.

Back on topic - why do people see transgender issues as 'left' or 'right'? I've thought a lot about this, and the nearest I can get to an explanation is that maybe it comes down to a 'left wing' belief in personal autonomy that overrides the safety and dignity of others, and a 'right wing' belief in authoritarian control and 'traditional' values and a desire to squash any differences in others. I'm not sure that's entirely true, but it's as near as I can get, as to me, the issues do not sit on the 'right/left' spectrum at all. I'd be very interested if someone who does see things that way can explain?

Wyllow3

To return to the O/P

Yes, there are currently more Left/centre Left posters than Right

.....but that is due to current circumstances, imo, ie Reforms racism/misogyny and money dodgy obtained: and the Conservatives currently not providing (yet?) a credible set of policies.

*It could just easily swing back to right wingers being comfy to post when events and circumstances change*

It could indeed move to the right, that depends on Burnhams policies being successful and popular, that will not be an easy feat

Actually I think most of the posters on here belong firmly in the middle - either slightly left to it or slightly right. But there are definitely some posters who are quite a way to the right - so on the scale 1-9 they are 2, but there are no posters that fit the far left or radical left positions. So I do think the far left label is incorrect.

Meandrogrog

Dickens, .i will answer this in more detail but am going out for the day. I dont want to rush my response so will reply once back later today.

Perfectly understand - there is a life outside of GN!

I don't expect an immediate response anyway... from anyone.

You’re wasting your time OREO 😅🙄. There are none so blind as those who cannot see…..

Starmer wasn’t the only one blindly following others down that particular rabbit hole was he? The madness of believing a man could be a woman if he said so was infecting politicians all over the place ( maybe not in Reform tho) thankfully the Court ruling made it clear that a woman who was born a female is the true definition of a woman.Which put an end to the crazy thinking.

Interesting perspective Doodledog.
I can see both sides of what you describe.

Threads always get like this by page 8 or 9. It's like most things have been said once, so some people start enjoying a bit of an interpersonal tiff, OK if you really want that.

Tho I am looking forward to Meandrogrog returning with a point as it isn't a tiff its a serious point.

Doodledog

The goady 'some people' (or 'a certain type of left wing person') comment is exactly what I was getting at last night. There is nothing there to argue against, as there is no example of it in action, no reference to who is supposedly doing it. Worse, if people ask for clarification they are told that their 'hot denials' were to be expected, so not only can they not ask for an explanation of the accusations, but they can't deny them either.

We've seen this on here before - often if someone replies and refutes the accusation, she is then accused of making things 'all about her', as even though the dig was obviously targeted and personal, not naming anyone means that this can be denied. It's tiresome.

Back on topic - why do people see transgender issues as 'left' or 'right'? I've thought a lot about this, and the nearest I can get to an explanation is that maybe it comes down to a 'left wing' belief in personal autonomy that overrides the safety and dignity of others, and a 'right wing' belief in authoritarian control and 'traditional' values and a desire to squash any differences in others. I'm not sure that's entirely true, but it's as near as I can get, as to me, the issues do not sit on the 'right/left' spectrum at all. I'd be very interested if someone who does see things that way can explain?

I expected that would be your response.

Wyllow3

*Threads always get like this by page 8 or 9*. It's like most things have been said once, so some people start enjoying a bit of an interpersonal tiff, OK if you really want that.

Tho I am looking forward to Meandrogrog returning with a point as it isn't a tiff its a serious point.

Are you enjoying it Wyllow3?
Because I’m not, it’s becoming a waste of time trying to make any serious posts.

Sago

Whitewavemark2

Please!! Not transgender again! A single issue that frankly has been done to death,

This IMO is shouting someone down, it is a serious issue for some people.

Why can we not raise this subject?

Why can we not raise this subject?

I rather agree.

IMO, TW activists who insist on imposing themselves in women's spaces are exhibiting just another form of misogyny - and that's very much part of the discussion.

Misogyny is always relevant on these Threads, but heading back to the OP, is TW a left or a right wing issue?

I wonder where on the GN version of the political spectrum would Aneurin Bevan sit?

It isnt really the subject of trans that is the point, it could be the cheering on of covering womens faces, sex work is work, whatever new misogyny that is being embraced. It is the assumption that there is this terrible new misogyny coming from reform ( I suspect class is wrapped up in this as well) when the other parties have their own form of misogyny. And no body seems to worry about 'our daughters' when that is bandied about.

Thats complex i think maremia, the tories were up to their neck in the trans issue but then changed tack, probably for votes but certainly in the case of badenoch I felt her beliefs were genuine. I think she was speaking out before becoming leader? There were brave women in the labour party too.
I think there are a few subjects that dont fit into to the left/right categories well. I have said this before but if I know how someone thinks on the trans issue, I can generally predict what they will think on a few other subjects that aren't linked - assisted dying being one. Those subjects dont fit well into a left/ right divide.

Oreo

Starmer wasn’t the only one blindly following others down that particular rabbit hole was he? The madness of believing a man could be a woman if he said so was infecting politicians all over the place ( maybe not in Reform tho) thankfully the Court ruling made it clear that a woman who was born a female is the true definition of a woman.Which put an end to the crazy thinking.

I agree.

That doesn’t mean, for me, that the many law abiding transgender people in this country shouldn’t be “allowed” to live peacefully.

In my opinion, it means that neither their rights, nor any other minority rights, should override the rights of others or be at the expense of others.

nanna8

When I first started I referred in a post to ‘illegal immigrants’ and got toId off by the mods. I didn’t say asylum seekers either because I didn’t mean them. I think everyone was supposed to think the same way and ,in some ways, that is still an expectation. Some of us have different perspectives on things but there is not much room for dissenting opinions. I also have, at times, felt very unwelcome because I don’t reside in the UK. Better now but still the odd snarky comment.

The problem with "illegal immigrants" is that it can sound as though the person themselves is illegal, rather than a particular action or their immigration status.

A person can breach immigration law, but they do not cease to be a person with human rights, a family, a history, and a life.

Compare these expressions:

“Illegal immigrants” — labels people by an alleged or established violation of immigration law.

“Undocumented migrants” — emphasises a lack of, or problem with, documentation.

“People without regular immigration status” — describes a person's administrative or legal situation.

“People who entered a country without authorisation” — describes a specific action.

The distinction is important: the last expression concerns how someone entered a country, while the others may concern their present circumstances.

Calling someone illegal can also encourage the mistaken idea that they are outside the protection of the law. In reality, people without lawful immigration status generally retain fundamental human rights, although their particular legal rights vary by country and circumstance.