Is Gransnet leaning more to the left?

Poppyred

You’re wasting your time OREO 😅🙄. There are none so blind as those who cannot see…..

That’s exactly the kind of comment many of us, “right” or “left” are highlighting as “goady” or “unhelpful”.

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone has the right to make a comment such as this, you’re simply saying you’re right and anyone disagreeing with you is wrong.

Oreo and I agree on many things, and disagree with others, and both of us agree that’s ok!

I'm not sure if Gransnet is leaning more to the left. I'm a former Conservative voter and would say I'm in the centre with toe over the line to the right.
I agree with most of the posts said to be by those on the left. Could it be because I mostly believe they are correct.
There must be other GNs like me who are in the centre but agree with those who may be on the left.

Oreo

Doodledog

The goady 'some people' (or 'a certain type of left wing person') comment is exactly what I was getting at last night. There is nothing there to argue against, as there is no example of it in action, no reference to who is supposedly doing it. Worse, if people ask for clarification they are told that their 'hot denials' were to be expected, so not only can they not ask for an explanation of the accusations, but they can't deny them either.

We've seen this on here before - often if someone replies and refutes the accusation, she is then accused of making things 'all about her', as even though the dig was obviously targeted and personal, not naming anyone means that this can be denied. It's tiresome.

Back on topic - why do people see transgender issues as 'left' or 'right'? I've thought a lot about this, and the nearest I can get to an explanation is that maybe it comes down to a 'left wing' belief in personal autonomy that overrides the safety and dignity of others, and a 'right wing' belief in authoritarian control and 'traditional' values and a desire to squash any differences in others. I'm not sure that's entirely true, but it's as near as I can get, as to me, the issues do not sit on the 'right/left' spectrum at all. I'd be very interested if someone who does see things that way can explain?

I expected that would be your response.

Well, I've been pointing out the tactics for long enough. Now you've had your dig, have you any comment on the point I am making?

Maremia

Interesting perspective Doodledog.
I can see both sides of what you describe.

The bit about Trans or the bit about 'some people'? Either way, can you say more about the 'sides'?

I thought your dig came first?
It’s nothing to do with tactics, it’s what I see on the political pages of this forum.
If a few people think my description fits them and take umbrage then I can’t help that.
The topic isn’t transgender issues btw but has been mentioned as part of this discussion.

Oreo

I thought your dig came first?
It’s nothing to do with tactics, it’s what I see on the political pages of this forum.
If a few people think my description fits them and take umbrage then I can’t help that.
The topic isn’t transgender issues btw but has been mentioned as part of this discussion.

No, I didn't dig - I simply pointed out that the 'some left-leaning people' comment was an example of something I mentioned last night but didn't have an example to back it up.

I was open and honest about who I meant - no digs, no snide comments that can be denied, no weasel words.

You've even demonstrated the 'if the cap fits' 'defence' I mentioned earlier, too.

How do you expect people to reply if their comments are going to be taken as making it about them, if they are going to be told that they are predictable, so dismissed without a reason, and accused of 'hot denials', again with no examples of such?

That's why I see it as tactics. It follows a pattern, and doesn't move the conversation on, as everything is couched in vague, passive terms. I haven't taken umbrage - I am just calling it out and being honest about doing so.

I know the topic is not about transgender issues btw, but I wasn't aware that the thread was being policed, and they do drift sometimes. As that topic has been mentioned (and, I think also commented on by you?) I have responded to that.

In answer to the original question, no I do not think Gransnet is now leaning more to the left. I think it has always been leaning to the left. For the first 13 years of Gransnet the Conservatives (with a bit of Lib Dem input) were in power. The Left were vociferous in their condemnation of much of what they did, quite natural I suppose. Now the boot is on the other foot but I really don’t see as much Left bashing as there was Right bashing. Which brings to mind ‘there are none so blind as those who will not see’. Or words to that effect.
PS this is a chat thread, not N&P. Anyone expecting links or anything else to back up my opinion can whistle.

MrsQuigley

In answer to the original question, no I do not think Gransnet is now leaning more to the left. I think it has always been leaning to the left. For the first 13 years of Gransnet the Conservatives (with a bit of Lib Dem input) were in power. The Left were vociferous in their condemnation of much of what they did, quite natural I suppose. Now the boot is on the other foot but I really don’t see as much Left bashing as there was Right bashing. Which brings to mind ‘there are none so blind as those who will not see’. Or words to that effect.
PS this is a chat thread, not N&P. Anyone expecting links or anything else to back up my opinion can whistle.

At least you state clearly that is this is your opinion.

It’s one you have a right to hold and express.

I simply don’t agree.

Doodledog you have decided in your comments, that you don’t like what I have written about what I see on the political pages here.
You are hotly in denial, and I did expect that. I stand by what I said and it certainly wasn’t couched in vague or passive terms it was quite direct with what I think.
I do think however that your own passive vague tone is par for the course.
So now I am being honest about calling it out.

MrsQuigley 😁
I don’t know how things were a long time ago on here but you obviously do.

And now Doodledog going forwards we shall have to agree to disagree.

Everybody sees different things, nobody is right or wrong, it’s just different perspectives.

What I don’t understand is what it is that actually intimidates those on the right from posting. Why do you actually care if people you don’t agree with challenge you, or are forceful, why don’t you plough on and say what you think regardless, your opinion is valid whether other people agree with it or not. Don’t be somebody who doesn’t express a personal opinion, but just says ‘I agree’, say what you think yourself, and take the flak with a clear conscience rather than simmering in the background.

In reality the only reason more people from the left are posting is that people on the right aren’t?

Thank you Cossy. I really appreciate that. Let’s agree to disagree.

Surely the further someone believes we are leaning to the left tells us how far some have moved to the right. Often it seems to be more about the social hierarchy, about being a morally better person and belonging that rather than an understanding of the politics. But - and I personally think this is very important - I think the same thing is true of any extreme political group.

Oreo

Doodledog you have decided in your comments, that you don’t like what I have written about what I see on the political pages here.
You are hotly in denial, and I did expect that. I stand by what I said and it certainly wasn’t couched in vague or passive terms it was quite direct with what I think.
I do think however that your own passive vague tone is par for the course.
So now I am being honest about calling it out.

Ok, please tell me what I said that is passive and vague, and also what I have denied?

I am not being goady - I would genuinely like to know if my posts are being read as such, as that is entirely the opposite of how I intend, and if I can see how that has happened I can change them.

I always agree to disagree, but I also say why I disagree - there would be no discussions if we all said nothing.

Hi Doodledog just getting back to you.
It's from your post this morning at 09.24.
You explain that for transgender issues
Left wing believes in personal autonomy
Right wing believes in authoritarian control an tradition.
This is an excerpt, and GNs may check out the full quote using the time detail.
Thanks for that.
Weirdly, or maybe not, I am in discussion with other helpful GNs on this topic elsewhere.

MrsQuigley

In answer to the original question, no I do not think Gransnet is now leaning more to the left. I think it has always been leaning to the left. For the first 13 years of Gransnet the Conservatives (with a bit of Lib Dem input) were in power. The Left were vociferous in their condemnation of much of what they did, quite natural I suppose. Now the boot is on the other foot but I really don’t see as much Left bashing as there was Right bashing. Which brings to mind ‘there are none so blind as those who will not see’. Or words to that effect.
PS this is a chat thread, not N&P. Anyone expecting links or anything else to back up my opinion can whistle.

I think that there will always be government 'bashing', as the government of the day makes the laws and brings in policies that affect us all. So when the Tories are in power it is their politics and politicians who are criticised, and the same applies when there is a Labour government.

I suppose that what we see as 'bashing' depends on how far we agree with it, and how far we approve of the current government. I was shocked at the way KS was treated at the time of the GE and afterwards. I didn't agree with everything he said or did, but IMO the knee-jerk reactions to everything were way over the top, particularly at first when he hadn't had time to show his hand. Maybe that's because I support Labour on the whole, but I don't think that can account for all of it.

When people criticised Johnson for telling lies to the late Queen, and for partying when the rest of us (including the Queen) couldn't attend funerals or see our children at Christmas, and much, much more, I didn't see it as 'bashing' - it was well-deserved criticism of his actions, as those actions were indicative of the 'one rule for us and another for everyone else' way of thinking which is often associated with Tory policies. I couldn't understand why people stuck up for him, but they did. Again, maybe that's because I am not a Tory voter, but I don't think that can account for all of it either.

Maremia

Hi Doodledog just getting back to you.
It's from your post this morning at 09.24.
You explain that for transgender issues
Left wing believes in personal autonomy
Right wing believes in authoritarian control an tradition.
This is an excerpt, and GNs may check out the full quote using the time detail.
Thanks for that.
Weirdly, or maybe not, I am in discussion with other helpful GNs on this topic elsewhere.

Ah, I see, and thanks for getting back to me.

I think that may be clutching at straws a bit, but it's the only reason I can think of for why some see support for Trans issues as left wing and objections to Trans 'rights' as right wing.

This might be a good time to link this clip.
Only a few words but sooooo true.

www.facebook.com/reel/29243663758585524

Another good one petra.

Like the link content Petra 👍

Big and small businesses, multibillion pound or dollar corporations, seeking commercial advantage, profit etc can legitimately receive grants, tax breaks, and all manner of government handouts and preferential contracts in the name of right wing capitalism.

But when a segment of the population receives government handouts in context of welfare it's deemed unwarranted left/far left socialism, scrounging or worse.

It is somewhat hypocritical I agree.

To preempt deflection any non legitimate recipients of either business or welfare handouts should be identified and such handouts stopped- both sides will have system abusers- we only need to remember Michelle Malone. On business side likely to much larger finical losses to the government in terms of hand out abuse

Michelle Mone that is 🥱

Sago

Who mentioned far left?🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

You did.......

Doodledog

The goady 'some people' (or 'a certain type of left wing person') comment is exactly what I was getting at last night. There is nothing there to argue against...

"There is nothing there to argue against"... of course, because the 'some people' is a blanket attack on the Left. To be strictly fair, I have also seen this, occasionally, the other way round, as in "you can't get through to ^some people^" - that's an actual comment made by a left-leaning poster.

These are the sort of comments that you can't argue against, other than to say "it's not true"; in which case, as you point out, that ground has already been covered by anticipating the denial... "of course, they won't admit it" - or some similar comment.

The thread topic is then abandoned as the following posts then become all about the "some people", who are not named but nevertheless accused of bullying.

Have you ever read the FitzGerald's famous translation of the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyam? To utterly mangle one of his stanzas (verse XXVII - 27)

Myself when old did eagerly frequent
threads on Gransnet, and heard great argument
about this and that, but evermore
came out by the same door where in I went

Back on topic - why do people see transgender issues as 'left' or 'right'?

For the same reason the Referendum was? I don't know.

petra

This might be a good time to link this clip.
Only a few words but sooooo true.

www.facebook.com/reel/29243663758585524

A man completely after my own heart