What is a lesbian?

And as I said before heterosexual speed dating events issue tickets to ensure that equal numbers of both sexes turn up.

But they wanted a TW free event. They wanted an event for lesbians. Males are not lesbians.
Why should they have to set up something they don’t want?
I understand you have to support that, given your pro-male stance, but males wanting sexual encounters with females are heterosexual and would not be welcome by lesbians for sexual liaisons.

Glorianny

But no one's right have been overridden. The law is absolutely clear. Any event for women can be designated as being only for natal women if the women attending that event would not attend if transwomen attend.
The problem is that instead of using the law the woman organising the event took it upon herself to attempt to stop transwomen attending without using the proper legal process. I have no idea why she did so. But no one whatever their circumstances should be able to circumvent the law.
Had she pursued the legal process I would be 100% behind her.
Of course one reason she may not have used the legal process may be because some attendees would not want to ban transwomen.
You don't prove your point by making comments on social media you prove your point through due legal process.

I was talking about "rights" in general terms when I referred to the activists, not specifically about this particular incident.

As with all media reporting of such events, we can only know as much as we are told. If some of the attendees objected to the exclusion of transwomen, then that puts a different complexion on the matter - but only in as far as their wishes were not taken into account. It doesn't alter the fact of harassment and intimidation.

Are you absolutely sure that going down the 'legal' route would have resulted in a ban on transwomen attending the event (if that was the consensus) - or would it have been a long and drawn out battle, with transwomen challenging her (and not necessarily those wanting to attend the event)... the TW activists who frequently appear with their placards demonstrating publicly at any challenge to their 'right' to enter or be part of a women-only event?

The law, at the moment, appears to be very much in tune with transwomen, and any opposition to male-bodied TW activism is deemed transphobic. On the other end of this extreme, is the RW media vilifying the whole transgender community. Natal women's pip-squeak voice in the middle is ignored.

And then of course there is the little matter of knowing that anyone who does complain risks being accused of getting the event shut down, with all the threats and vitriol that that entails.

Given the slogans of many TRAs, as well as the cancellations and sackings of those who are brave enough to resist, I think a lot of women would just quietly stay at home rather than show up and refuse to attend until the men have been sent away.

I appreciate that that suits your agenda, but it is hardly fair to women who just want a female-only dating event, is it? Is it such a big deal for them to hope for that?

Glorianny

Rosie51

Glorianny please link to where the legal process you think she should have used is detailed. Does she have to fill in forms to apply for a legal dispensation, have pre bookings from named attendees etc. Are 'drop ins' not allowed?

Of course one reason she may not have used the legal process may be because some attendees would not want to ban transwomen. so if one or two potential attendees were happy to accommodate men in the lesbian event but 30 weren't, whose vote triumphs? Does the vote of a transwoman, a male, count for those wanting to admit men to the gathering?

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/guidance-separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-equality-act-sex-and-gender-reassignment-exceptions.pdf

And they provide a free advice service.
So not too difficult to discover.

It would be perfecly possible to have 2 levels of events one transwomen free, one transwomen inclusive.

I've read right through the link you provided. Nowhere does it mention forms or a legal process to be registered to enable the holding of an event for lesbians being restricted to natal females. It does say you may be breaking the law if you cannot show that females would not attend if males are allowed. By your standards should an event just for lesbians be allowed, what about heterosexual women, or homosexual or heterosexual men? How is it legal to exclude them on grounds of sexuality?
Why should this organiser have to arrange two events, if transwomen want such an event they should be able to arrange it themselves and advertise it for transwomen.

That would mean men doing their own social organising, though, Rosie. Of course it would make sense for transwomen to advertise a dating night and see how many lesbians turn up, but as well as putting in some effort, that would mean the risk to their ego involved in sitting there and finding that strangely no lesbians were interested, on account of their being men.

Rosie51 and Doodledog

I was going to suggest that transwomen organise their own 'lesbian' dating event (speedy or otherwise), I can't imagine it's that complex - get together with a few like-minded transwomen, find a venue, book it, then send out the flyers.

But the thought occurred to me - this is not what it's about. Is it really that transwomen want relationships with lesbians? If so, the TW revealing his dick in his tight fitting costume and those intimidating and assaulting lesbians (in the toilets I believe) need some lessons in social etiquette first if they want to get it on with a lesbian.

Or is it that they wanted to challenge and provoke the lesbians because they are, like hetero women, forming a barrier against male-bodied transwomen attempting to colonise women only events and spaces?

What did they do, and what do they do in these kinds of instances? They got it cancelled and closed down.

These are the same TWAs that turn up at other public events, waving their dicks via their threatening placards... men who identify as women explicitly, sexually, threatening the women they identify as. How else to explain this behaviour, other than that of the typical male misogynist.

Doodledog

That would mean men doing their own social organising, though, Rosie. Of course it would make sense for transwomen to advertise a dating night and see how many lesbians turn up, but as well as putting in some effort, that would mean the risk to their ego involved in sitting there and finding that strangely no lesbians were interested, on account of their being men.

Perfectly put Doodledog.
This females (lesbian or not) should put males wants first attitude is reminiscent of the marriage service, before it was amended.

There, the word obey was included and then used as a stick by males including priests, to make wives do as males required.
It’s sad when that males desires first attitude is still being perpetrated by some supposed females.

twitter.com/sisterrosetta57/status/1692994355420680469?s=20
I wonder what Glorianny makes of this event. Not open to non trans or non non-binary people unless they're allies. So very exclusive, not inclusive at all. Can you imagine the foot stomping and threats if an LGB, or just L or G event was proposed?

I think it’s great Rosie51. Hopefully they’ll all be so busy attending their exclusive inclusive event that they’ll leave the lesbian events alone.
You can be sure that females who support females won’t be waving flags and being violent, after the fashion of TRA.

Don’t they have to prove that trans and non-binary people would refuse to attend if they knew that it was open to the general public? You know, in order to use the legal process and all that?

Doodledog

Don’t they have to prove that trans and non-binary people would refuse to attend if they knew that it was open to the general public? You know, in order to use the legal process and all that?

Good point, and of course, since we can’t tell just by looking (or so I’ve been told) how are they going to prove they meet the criteria?

You want transphobic people to be able to attend a trans event?

Gross

VioletSky

You want transphobic people to be able to attend a trans event?

Gross

Who wants transphobic people to attend a trans event?
That’s a weird claim, even from you VS.

Do you want people who aren't lesbians to attend a speed dating event for lesbians?

Rosie51

twitter.com/sisterrosetta57/status/1692994355420680469?s=20
I wonder what Glorianny makes of this event. Not open to non trans or non non-binary people unless they're allies. So very exclusive, not inclusive at all. Can you imagine the foot stomping and threats if an LGB, or just L or G event was proposed?

*unless they are allies"

Allies are people who:

Do not misgender

Do not make comments about trans people's appearance not suiting their gender

Understand gender dysphoria

Understand tran people have existed for centuries

Want trans people to have a unisex toilet option

Respects the terminology trans people use to describe their own bodies

Do not question a trans person's transition journey or surgical status

So most decent polite people would be welcome as allies

If they aren't allies, why would they want to go anyway?

Honestly, this is hilarious and definitely two faced. Saying,
If they aren't allies, why would they want to go anyway?
Is acceptable to VS

Whereas saying

If they aren’t lesbians, (AHF who prefer to date females) why would they want to go anyway? . . .
is claimed as transphobic by VS and G et al.

Mollygo

Honestly, this is hilarious and definitely two faced. Saying,
If they aren't allies, why would they want to go anyway?
Is acceptable to VS

Whereas saying

If they aren’t lesbians, (AHF who prefer to date females) why would they want to go anyway? . . .
is claimed as transphobic by VS and G et al.

Allies are people who understand gender dysphoria

VioletSky

You want transphobic people to be able to attend a trans event?

Gross

I think you're missing the point VS - the comments are highlighting the double-standards.

I really don't think anyone on here wants to see violence perpetrated against the trans gender community, seriously.

As for being transphobic - how many times does it need to be said - questioning the assertion that a biological man can be a woman on the basis of him saying he is - is not phobic, it is a legitimate point and one which women, the affected demographic, have the right to make. There is a difference between biological sex and gender identity - and sometimes this difference matters, and when it does, it is not phobic to point out how it might matter.

Allies are welcome to the event

Which means, I can go

If you aren't an ally that is something for you to examine in yourself if it bothers you you can't attend

So for the purpose of understanding (honestly I do find it hard to get my head around some of the complicated contrived views on GN)
You think transwomen shouldn't be permitted at lesbian events
BUT
You think trans events should be open to everyone even transphobic people.
Isn't that simply and obviously prejudice?

I think if lesbians want to exclude transwomen they should do so through a proper legal process, and not through social media.
I think trans public events will probably attract enough condemnation and victimisation from transphobic people without having to publicly say they are welcome. (No one has said you can't go-only that allies are welcome)

Good catch *glorianny"

Yes no one has said anyone can't go, just that they welcome allies

Not a comparable situation at all

And you think that the views of biological realists are convoluted??

You claim that the only way an event can be kept for the people for whom it was intended (for the purposes of this thread that is lesbians) if those people say they wouldn’t go if it were open to others, exposing them to threats and intimidation.

Then you say that an event that is intended for trans and non-binary people can go ahead with no such strictures, because- I’m not sure of the because, really - ‘just because’?

I am not transphobic. I have zero problem with the idea of a trans dating event at which only transpeople are welcomed. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to impose themselves on it unless they were trans.

I also think that a lesbian dating event should have the same respect shown to it, and that there should be no need for people to announce their intention to stay away in order for non-lesbians to be excluded.

How is that convoluted? As for my question about how the legal situation you brought up would apply to the trans/non-binary event - I see there is the usual evasion, covered with an insult. Plus ca change, eh?

Doodledog

And you think that the views of biological realists are convoluted??

You claim that the only way an event can be kept for the people for whom it was intended (for the purposes of this thread that is lesbians) if those people say they wouldn’t go if it were open to others, exposing them to threats and intimidation.

Then you say that an event that is intended for trans and non-binary people can go ahead with no such strictures, because- I’m not sure of the because, really - ‘just because’?

I am not transphobic. I have zero problem with the idea of a trans dating event at which only transpeople are welcomed. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to impose themselves on it unless they were trans.

I also think that a lesbian dating event should have the same respect shown to it, and that there should be no need for people to announce their intention to stay away in order for non-lesbians to be excluded.

How is that convoluted? As for my question about how the legal situation you brought up would apply to the trans/non-binary event - I see there is the usual evasion, covered with an insult. Plus ca change, eh?

The event isn't intended for just trans and non-binary people Doodledog. Nowhere does it say that. It s an event to celebrate trans and non-binary people at which "allies are welcome". No one is banned.

Had the lesbian speed dating advertised as "Ciswomen welcome" I'd have no objection.

Really openness and inclusivity is simple.

VioletSky

Good catch *glorianny"

Yes no one has said anyone can't go, just that they welcome allies

Not a comparable situation at all

When the real transphobes turn up (and I hope they don't, but they do have a penchant for it) determined to 'challenge' the trans community - then the polite wording might change somewhat if some are harassed and / or assaulted at the event.

As happened with the dating event.

There are transwomen, and there are right-wing bigots, among both demographics who are determined to cause trouble.