Perverted man claims to be a woman - may be housed in a women's prison

Same here VS. Even the oldest person I know shares my opinions on this topic. But like attracts like, doesn't it? I don't know anyone in person that is gender critical.

GagaJo

Same here VS. Even the oldest person I know shares my opinions on this topic. But like attracts like, doesn't it? I don't know anyone in person that is gender critical.

It only really came to my attention when I saw people talking about JK Rowling but I've never really liked her anyway or understood why writing a fantasy series would give anyone a cult like following. I think it's irresponsible to use fame as power

It's true that most education settings have been signed up to the Stonewall agenda, so yes, you'll get a pretty one-sided perspective there.

I don't think that young people are of one mind on this, though. I know those who are very pro-trans, and those who worry about women's rights. Just like older people, they make up their own minds.

I agree that FB can be an echo chamber. I use it, but absolutely not to broaden my horizons - it definitely won't do that.

I have no idea what you thought GN would be. I thought you'd been here for a long time, one way and another? Maybe have a look over at Mumsnet? You don't have to post if you don't want to or don't have time. That way you will come across a different set of different views - largely from a younger demographic.

Where did you see and hear and watch all the transpeople? I'm assuming not on social media as you are an infrequent user?

Maybe talk to them about the way they feel about self-id, or about whether they think that women's rights are being eroded? You might be surprised at some of their answers, and you will be able to follow up your questions more easily on a one-to-one basis face to face than on a public online forum.

2 years I have been here I think. I was looking online for something and came across a thread I wanted ro reply to. Which was actually because I wanted somewhere balanced rather than an echo chamber thinking it would be more productive.

Young people are occasionally heavily influenced by the adults around them so education tries to allow for them to make their own minds up as they should. Some things, like not allowing discrimination are enshrined in law whoever asks it and rightly so.

That comes from our own British values of individual liberty, tolerance and respect.

I'm afraid I'm another one who hadn't encountered anyone who was gender critical until I came onto GN. I had met quite a few people who respectfully asked others what pronoun they would prefer. None of these were in education settings (I tend to stay away from them since I retired). They were in arts/dance/performance settings. I suppose such areas generally tend to be more accepting of difference.
Basically my philosophy relies heavily on Simone DeBeauvoir and the Second Sex and her line "One is not born, rather one becomes a woman". So I can accept transwomen as women. If you can't do that that's fine as well, but I do wonder how you intend to know who is trans.
As I believe transwomen are women I don't see women's rights being eroded. I don't see how someone who believes they are a woman wouldn't act in the best interests of all women.

Ah trisher thays exactly how I feel. I also would not know many young people are trans had they not openly said so.

Exactly VS. My tutor group 7 years ago was a case in point. TJ was the only boy. Took me months to work out he was a transboy.

That surprises me trisher, that until you came onto GN you had never met anyone who wasn't gender critical.

That said, until I came onto GN I'd never met anyone who didn't believe that someone's sex is biological and immutable.

I don't believe that transwomen are women which is why I see women's rights being eroded for all of the reasons that permeate this thread.

One is born female and once the milestones of childhood, puberty and adolescence have been reached, by virtue of being born female, becomes a woman.

IMO there is nothing respectful or accepting in forcing people to use language with which they are uncomfortable. I'm not sure if you are making a dig there, trisher, but I am accepting of difference, and I believe the word of those on here who say they are, too. I believe that there is a difference between the sexes, and that that cannot be changed, and would like it if that belief could be respected.

My beef, as I keep saying, is not with transpeople, but with the way in which the agenda has been seized by extremists who refuse to debate and who absolutely do want to erode the rights of women. I also feel strongly that language is vitally important to our understanding of the world, and that the way in which it has been hijacked is dangerous.

I feel that this agenda has been detrimental to transpeople as well as to women, and thought there was some agreement about that on this thread. Do you (anyone?) not think that there is common ground in that we all seem to be saying that transpeople are not the problem, but that there is a problem with those (fake trans, not valid trans, etc) who abuse the current situation for nefarious reasons, and that steps need to be taken to stop this?

VS, I am confused again. You have 'seen too much proof, read too many stories, listened to too many trans people speak, watched them transition, watched them find their real authentic selves', yet are unable to tell a transperson when you see one?

I would agree that on social media, filters and touched -up photos can make it hard to tell sometimes, but the transpeople I have come across 'in real life' are all fairly obviously trans. To suggest otherwise supposes that either there are no visible differences between men and women, or that only very 'feminine' men and 'masculine' women transition, both of which are untrue.

Autogynephiles believe that they are indistinguishable from women, which is why they get so angry when lesbians reject them, but otherwise I don't think anyone really thinks that very many transpeople aren't fairly obviously such. Children are a different matter, as their bodies are far more similar than those of adults. What's year 7? Age 12 or so? Give it a few more years, and unless there has been chemical intervention the differences will be clear, and even with it things like hands, shoulders, faces, gait are still likely to get more sex-specific as time goes by.

Simone De B's thoughts are about socialisation, and the way we learn gender norms, not about how we can somehow decide intellectually to change sex. Her book may have used Sex in the title, but that was because the language hadn't been hijacked when she wrote it, so if she used 'gender' at all, the terms would have been interchangeable.

I find this thread fascinating, but confusing.
So many aspects -eg types of feminism, social movements, legal aspects prison options social changes leading to public acceptance etc.
I've never regarded myself as a feminist, just always assumed that we are superior to males in everything except physical strength. But don't rub it in too much. It will emerge.
When I was in top class primary 1946 my Dear dad had just come back from the War and I hated the male gender for starting all these conflicts. I organised a boys v, girls mass fight and we, all the girls, beat the boys in one to one.
Later I was able to hold my own in the employment world as well as bringing up a family.
I thought this was proof of my belief that women are inherently superior to men.
So well done to many women to promote changes that have led to males backing down.Through the legal system.

I would also ask the question - if the people on here who have the most transpeople in their lives have never come across a single viewpoint that is less than accepting, how is it that we keep hearing that transpeople are the most victimised members of society?

doodledog

I have seen many videos that have been shared about people I do not know.

There are an awful lot of things I don't know about people I first meet until they choose to share that information with me and I've never been one to make assumptions

Exactly Doodledog "socialisation, and the way we learn gender norms, not about how we can somehow decide intellectually to change sex".

Smileless2012

Exactly Doodledog "socialisation, and the way we learn gender norms, not about how we can somehow decide intellectually to change sex".

Yes, Smileless, we cross-posted but said the same thing.

Interestingly, SDeB at least knew what a woman was. These days, it's anyone's guess, and it is typically those who believe that anyone can become a woman who have least idea of what it actually means.

Doodledog

I would also ask the question - if the people on here who have the most transpeople in their lives have never come across a single viewpoint that is less than accepting, how is it that we keep hearing that transpeople are the most victimised members of society?

Exactly Doodledog and I would add as it's (according to some) impossible to tell a transwoman from a woman without genital inspection how do these people know who to victimise?

You dont know anyone who believes in the reality of biological sex?

As soon as you say transwomen are women you show your self ignorant of science.
As soon as you claim the word women for the use of men, you are discriminatory against the rights of females.
As soon as you claim that transwomen should be able to override the rights and safety of natal women, you are more discriminatory than those you say are wrong and you are doing more to harm the trans movement than any one else.

Rosie51
I was listening to a well known journalist and commentator last night talking on this very subject.
He said: once you start pulling the threads, it all starts falling apart.

Mollygo

As soon as you say transwomen are women you show your self ignorant of science.
As soon as you claim the word women for the use of men, you are discriminatory against the rights of females.
As soon as you claim that transwomen should be able to override the rights and safety of natal women, you are more discriminatory than those you say are wrong and you are doing more to harm the trans movement than any one else.

Funny that isn't how transwomen see it, don't you think?

7 years ago DD. He was 15.

Mollygo

As soon as you say transwomen are women you show your self ignorant of science.
As soon as you claim the word women for the use of men, you are discriminatory against the rights of females.
As soon as you claim that transwomen should be able to override the rights and safety of natal women, you are more discriminatory than those you say are wrong and you are doing more to harm the trans movement than any one else.

You are entitled to hold that perseptive

GagaJo

7 years ago DD. He was 15.

Ah sorry - I misread.

I don't know anyone in person that is gender critical

Perhaps widening your circle of associates would broaden your mind and open up the possibility of seeing things from other perspectives. Constantly staying within the same circles, swapping thesame opinions and experiences simply gives you confirmation bias of what you already think you know.

MerylStreep

Rosie51
I was listening to a well known journalist and commentator last night talking on this very subject.
He said: once you start pulling the threads, it all starts falling apart.

He's right.

When you look at some of the things on this very thread that make no sense, you can see what he means.

'Fake' trans.
Criminal transpeople are really so-called 'cis' men.
'Valid' and 'not valid' people.
The idea that transpeople are indistinguishable from members of the sex they aspire to be.
The idea that those who believe in biological sex are scarce.
The idea that people know many transpeople yet never hear a view other than the Stonewall one (TWAW - No Debate).
The idea that whilst it is difficult to detect transpeople, and very few people are even slightly critical of the notion that TWAW, transpeople are victimised and vulnerable.
The idea that 'real' feminism has nothing to do with women.
The idea that it's ok for women to be incarcerated with male sex offenders so long as that means that not one butch woman is questioned about her appearance.

Some of the arguments have so many holes in them that you don't need to pull a thread - they unravel all by themselves.

Aren't we doing that here Chewbacca?

Although I've probably become more entrenched due to the way opinions have been expressed