Schools banning skirts.

Trisher, for an ex teacher, I cannot believe how you take one phrase and then turn it into a set of ideas which have not been expressed, are not immediate conclusions from what has been said , and further then launch a tirade against the person who holds the biews as some sort of vile ignoramous who needs "educating" about something- as if I dont know?

I am not naive ( I think you may be though in some areas). I am fully aware how people in general, not just the young, change their behaviour to suit the occassion.

Part of my job as a teacher , in fact, is to teach those children who do not understand about needing to modify their behaviour according to circumstance, how to do that. It is a necessary social skill for anyone who hopes to have any kind of job ( I dont mean professional occupation necessarily either) and to generally be able to function in society. That is what education is about.

By and large society is not forgiving, friendly or generally flexible. There are rules in most, if not all work places
(including the school I work in which has a code of dress and behaviour for staff as well as pupils). You do not go onto a building site without a hard hat and boots, it is against the rules as well as a health and safety hazard and a disruption to others. You do not work as a receptionist unless you can dress nicely and smile and speak appropriately - you would not use course language or behaviour there. School is the place where you are educated in that. Thats part of my job.

I think sometimes there are people who are too willing to be flexible and try to accommodate young peoples behaviour. They try to explain and understand it at the expense of ensuring those young people understand that their behaviour has consequencies , many of which they do not foresee. You do them no favours in accepting them unconditionally. You do them ( nor yourself) any favours by not being able to discern behaviour that is appropriate in whatever situaltion and what is not. You do no one any favours in thinking that you shouldnt have standards against which you measure behaviour. I can understand just as well as you. The difference is I will not condone ladette behaviour. Its that simple.

Now, take an even deeper breath and let me reveal that for all my years of teaching, I am a Head of department and recently I have been made a Head of year too. So someone must like the way I deal with situations, even if you do not. I dont hide my views particularly.

I am waiting for the " I can possibly believe...... "

Why have I silenced you Iam64? You are entitled to an opinion and unlike some here, I am more that open to allowing you to have that opinion, whether or not I agree with it. That is more than can be said for others here, who would try to silence me because I am aborhorent, biggoted ( why always roll out the b word - what next the r word and then the h word?) I dispair.

But I enjoyed your more rounded contributions. I am more than willing to hear what you think. It probably wont change my views ( anymore than I will change yours). But listening to each other is healthy. Its unhealthy when one person is so upset ( at the challenge?) that they feel they need to silence the other.

Neither do I mind my views being challenged. However, trying to make it lok as if I am some sort of seven eyed monster who should not be allowed to teach because I am not "indoctrinated" in the ways of teacher socialist think ( as some are suggesting) is actually quite offensive.

Why should teachers all have to conform to group think? Are teachers not intelligent enough or educated enough to form their own opinions? Is that what you ( or others) think?

I work with lots of young people muffinthemoo However, it begs the question, how "old" do you have to be to be old? I wouldnt go guessing about me. I am most likely, older than you think ( although not 66 yet - that is retirement age as designated by the state pension)

I really do not see why my being an experienced teacher prohibits me from having picked up such a word. Surely an experienced teacher would be amongst the first to be on top of such buzz words? Coming into contact with younger people, would it not be logical that I am exposed to it?

SJW is an odd buzzword for an older lady and experienced teacher to have picked up.

abbeysomehow you mistakenly divide girls into 'bad girls' and 'young ladies'. Actually they are probably much the same, but some manage to adjust their behaviour to suit the place they are in and some don't. You might be surprised to see some of the 'young ladies' who obey the school rules on a night out, where many of them will be quite capable of behaving like the ladettes you despise. You might consider is this a desirable trait or duplicity?
As for the boys perhaps they need to know that the girls they will meet who may behave in what might be described as promiscous ways are not in fact 'asking for it' but must always be asked and must always consent to any activity. And perhaps they should be warned (as girls once were) not to be alone with a girl they don't trust. In other words that it is their responsibility to keep themselves safe and not the girl's
As for the SJW accusation. It's not worth replying to, my activities and my commitment are known to those who matter and you really don't.

abbey - congratulations. You've managed to silence me. I'm too cross to respond to your bigoted, smug and self satisfied comments. wasting energy of you - nope.

I'm really horrified by this thread, to see how far things have deteriorated since I left in the '90s.
What about school as a place for education? I don't know how you teachers cope now.
Maybe we should go back to school leaving age at 14.
But then these poor girls would go 'on the game' to earn a living.

But perhaps it has enlightened me on some things, I have wondered when their have been cases of suicide or self-harm in the media why the child had nowhere to turn.

You mean like all those SJW warriors who let the children down in Rochdale, Keighley, Oxford, Telford and many more places because they cared to put the cultures of others above the protection of children?

Where were you all when needed by those young people? Busy caring about the diversity and multi cultural rights of other groups instead weren't you?

…… you brought it up originally, so do not accuse me of binging in something unrelated.

I thought you were currently SJW - ing on the issue of children going hungry in school holidays?

It takes my breath away how some individuals think they have the monopoly on caring and have the arrogance to think that others who hold different views are not capable of caring.

Well I will tell you what I have been doing whilst you have been virtue posturing - I have been helping a young lady complete a piece of work for her PDP folio so that she is up do date and has something she can offer as evidence for continuing her education. That's what I have been doing. Doesn't matter that it is Sunday. I care.

I am shocked that anyone in the teaching profession should hold and post such views. I've been retired quite a while now and I know that the ideals I went into teaching with have been swamped with testing, and teaching to the tests, but I still thought there were teachers who held at the heart of their practice the concept of "Every child matters", who wanted children to be educated in an atmosphere where they were recognised as individuals, their talents applauded and their differences and needs met. But perhaps it has enlightened me on some things, I have wondered when their have been cases of suicide or self-harm in the media why the child had nowhere to turn. I understand more now. I only hope this attitude is the exception and that there are still teachers who think education concerns the needs of the whole child and not just stuffing facts for exams down their throats, that there are still teachers who sympathise and care.

Waves to teetime (well I would if we had a wave emoticon)

Now we are talking a handful of lairy girls with low self esteem/ poor ability to read social situations

Now, you see, I don't buy into that. That's where you and I differ.

Their parent / carers the same ilk or despairing?

Their parents are generally nice hard working people. I cant say that for all our pupils. Sometimes you can look at the parents and see why their offspring are so bad.

If they do not respond to school rules is exclusion helpful or harmful? If you are seriously concerned for their welfare are they on a CP register already or at least "on the system" ..I assume so?

We are working on the exclusion. Takes time to get enough evidence. They are not on the CP register because they are simply acting out. There are no rules broken in terms of CP and no issues. However, I do know that at least three of the girls want to leave the school. Their parents do not want that. The school I work in has a generally good reputation ( the other option is a hell hole - personally I think these girls deserve to go there)

Which brings me to the wider point. Why do we almost always assume the children must have issues? Must have low esteem? Must be treated with sympathy and kid gloves? We do them no favours for the future with that attitude.

Moreover, its the same kind of policy that claims to treat all as individuals whilst actually introducing rules ( and bans) which affect everyone for the purpose of dealing with a few. So ALL must wear trousers because a few are demanding it? We pander too much to the few and forget the majority too often.

A handful? No around two hands full. The problem is they are causing others to be disquieted. If they see these girls getting away with it, they think its "Cool" and may try it themselves. Mostly these others can be brought into line quickly but its a problem that needs addressing at the source - the laddettes.

I am talking about how each gender behaves in school. The boys clearly have taken on board the message about behaviour and are not breaking these rules in school . They may well break lots of other rules that get them into trouble, but not the sexual / contact/ loud and aggressive rules. I am not saying all the boys are angels. They can be rude. They can chat too much. They do play football in areas where they should not. They do race around ….. They can be checked easily.

Generally most of the pupils where I work are biddable. The lads are nice. Most of the girls are also nice . As I said, I will not blame the boys for the behaviour of the girls.

Hmm! That sounds a bit different. Now we are talking a handful of lairy girls with low self esteem/ poor ability to read social situations. Their parent / carers the same ilk or despairing? If they do not respond to school rules is exclusion helpful or harmful? If you are seriously concerned for their welfare are they on a CP register already or at least "on the system" ..I assume so?

I know the T word is banned so I won't use it. I find it very difficult to believe that girls are behaving badly and that all the boys are behaving appropriately. Look round any high street, who is name calling, shouting requests for sexual practices >. not any girls at all in my experience. I heard a group of boys shouting at some modestly dressed girls recently - the boys used really foul language and shouted out exactly the sexual practices they wanted from the girls. The girls ignored them, stayed close to each other and walked on.

PECS , for the record, I am not an SJW. I generally do not buy into the liberal education agenda. I don't mind if you do.

If you want to call me a " Right Wing Fascist" I could quite well accept that you might see me that way. I am not, but I do have clear views , even if I don't express them. Most people will know where they stand with me in real life. Where I work I am not alone. I am part of a more silent majority who say little when the other side get going. I don't have a bleeding heart on my sleeve.

It isn't good for us all to be the same really.

Boys should be taught to treat and react to girls how they would and expect boys to treat and react to their sisters!!

The point I have been making all along is that the boys are being respectful. They do not goad or in any way encourage the girls. They do treat them like "sisters" - or to be more precise, they actually walk away. This is why I am not keen on laying blame across the board because they boys are behaving appropriately. We have a few girls who are not being either respectful of themselves or others.

As I did mention, some of the older boys have petitioned the Head about the behaviour of these younger girls because they are conscious of any consequences and how easily they may be "blamed" in the situation.

If the boys were to blame, I would say so. This is girls and only girls. Girls behaving like laddettes and lose women. I speak as I find. I am not going to balem everyone to save the blushes of some loud and uncouth girls who are acting out because they see it on Love Island.

I have 4 boys and 1 girl . Have worked in Pre prep, primary and senior schools. State and independent.

Do not care what a pupil wears, it comes down to respect. Which if through home circumstances is not taught there it has to be taught at school.

Abbey you seem to blame girls, they like boys are being persuaded by media how they should dress and behave.

Boys should be taught to treat and react to girls how they would and expect boys to treat and react to their sisters!!

Location and financial situation should not make any difference to the respect between the male/female divide.

I suspect you would put me in your SJW group! But I am not offended by the term as it probably broadly describes me and I am not ashamed of who I am. However I agree that if you make a rule you have to follow through because having clear boundaries are easier for kids to deal with. However how you follow through might differ with each miscreant.

Schools are places where everyone from the cleaners to the Head need to work as part of a team. Discipline fails when this doesn't happen. Sympathy and feelings are an important part of discipline they do not replace or disrupt rules but provide a framework where children are treated as individuals and not as part of some machine. They mean that children with problems such as dyslexia and other difficulties can be encouraged and dealt with when they find the rules difficult. No one can completely seperate themselves from their feelings they are after all part of being human.

It is a common misconception that it is teachers who are at fault with discipline. In my experience it is Senior Management who cannot/ will not follow through who cause problems.

if the solution to a problem has to be a blanket ban on something, I would argue the Head Teacher is weak and bends too much with the SJW agenda . That is an opinion.

You may be quite right PECS but it isn't a significant number. Its a small number of highly disruptive girls who have not been checked quickly enough by SLT.

Its a case of every teacher for themselves where discipline is concerned. Those of us who are "old school" as the pupils call us ( based on the fact we were at the school before the current management) tend to deal quickly and effectively without SLT - and the pupils know where they stand with us because we do not do sympathy and feelings for the most part.

Other staff have issues. Those who learn from us sort themselves out. Others leave. SLT is currently weak, I agree.

abbey whilst I have no reason to doubt thst you are a well liked and good teacher I am concerned about the behaviour management at your school generally. Sounds like a Sig.number of students do not respect the schools ' rules and are not only breaking uniform rules but also disrupting lessons enough to distress teachers. Just because it serves a ' poor area' does not mean you cannot expect, & have, good attitudes / behaviour.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned - I haven't read all through the posts.

As a child, I loved trousers. As a teenager, I still loved trousers, but not when I had my period!
I suffered very heavy periods, and even doubling up with both sanitary towels and tampons, I was in danger of accidental leaks between lessons. I lived in fear of a visible leak, and although my school started allowing girls to wear trousers in winter while I was there, I avoided them like the plague, because a leak becomes visible much more quickly through trousers than through a skirt.

I'm sure that both back then and now, there must girls whose choice of clothing was for this reason?

You are welcome to have your own opinions abbey however I only took the things you had posted and drew conclusions from them. if they were the wrong conclusions I apologise but I still do not understand your complete lack of any sympathy (or so it seems) for what are after all children trying to be women and making errors as they do so.
It is fine to hold an alternative opinion but to imagine that opinion will not influence your interaction with such girls is simply wrong.

My goodness trisher - why so personal?
Teacher baiting? Its my buttons the children are pushing? .My sensitive points? My colleagues who disagree?... and they are the ones who connect with the pupils?? My discomfort? Who has said I am no good at my job ( other than you here)?

How dare you project your opinions concerning what you think I am like into that post!

You do not know me. You do not know my colleagues. Yo don't know the children ( although my original posts were a little more general than that).

One thing you are quite correct about - my personal opinions and attitudes do affect how I teach. I am actually a very good teacher. I am generally well liked and most of my colleagues ( and the children - as is evidenced by the large number of cards and little gifts I get as they leave - they don't do that for all teachers) think I do have an affinity with the age groups I teach and that I am an effective teacher. ( evidenced by exam results too).

Whilst I understand the issue of bad behaviour in classes, for the most part, I get very little of that behaviour in my classes and when I do get it, I deal with it quickly. It doesn't become an issue for me. The children do not press buttons with me , nor do I have any sensitivities they exploit in the classroom

What I do have is a well controlled, disciplined and safe space for learning. I achieve that by setting clear boundaries on what is acceptable behaviour in my classroom. The children respect that. They know where they stand.

How much they know of my opinions is questionable but it doesn't seem to be a problem for them. I am what the children in my school call "old school". They identify those of us who know what we are doing and don't take rubbish from them and they play up those who "connect ". They push the buttons with those individuals and play them up mercilessly. How many of them come into the staffroom crying ? How many need the support of other staff? Most of those who fall into what you seem to think is the ideal teacher as described in your missive.

I may be far from perfect. I may have opinions and attitudes ou do not like, but they are what makes me the successful teacher I am. I know who and what I am. I have maturity. I do not need you to validate my existence or identity.

No doubt that will not go down well with you.

I don't generally make personal attacks on others. I am not going to start now. I don't know what your problem is that you have to make so many ill informed assumptions about me.

No doubt when I do not continue to reply or debate in this thread you will deem you have "won" and that I have been beaten down. That is not correct. I have just chosen not to engage with you and your personal attacks further. You have well and truly lost - even if you have managed to beat me off the boards and deny expression to an alternative view to your own.