Worrying situation

Am I the only one who is absolutely amazed that all these clever dicks that run a country didn't have the foresight to see any of these problems coming?
I haven't got an 'ology' in anything, but you don't need a crystal ball to tell you there was going to be tears before bedtime.

It is the law of unforseen consequences. Often governments don't see consequences, even if they jump up and down in front of them waving a flag, because they don't want to see them. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I don't think anyone could predict the events of NYE. On a small scale yes, but not mass attacks like that. It's never happened before, so how could it be predicted?

What happens next is the important thing.

Just found this article on how deportation would be possible.

How easy is it to deport refugees from Germany?

I still think that the best way forward is to directly address the acculturisation issue. When significant numbers of people travel from one society to another, most of these refugees will start life in their new countries in reception centres. If a one week acculturisation course was a condition of moving out to start their new lives in a new environment this should ensure that all new migrants do it.

The course could cover a whole series of issues not just the difference in sexual mores; office etiquette, shop etiquette - even understanding how the recycling and the bin system works. There will be so much that is new in their new life to adjust to. Including a long session on behaviour between the sexes, not just to attempt to stop the kind of events that happened on NYE, but also so that the women know what freedoms, rights and protections they have in a new country.

It beggars belief that something along the lines you suggest isn't already in place Monica - it just seems like the sensible thing to do doesn't it?

I don't know if there is anything in place like this for asylum seekers but for people seeking British Citizenship there is the citizenship test which some people feel isn't fit for purpose. Apart from anything else, some of the questions are apparently out of date and anyway many people who have lived here all their lives say they can't answer several of the questions. Is it really all that important to know how many constituencies there are or what year women got the vote? I think more practical and social information would ease a person's transition from one culture to another.

I agree with Monica that a course which covers all the issues she mentioned should be compulsory for new arrivals as it would save a lot of potential difficulties and misunderstanding between newcomers and the general population. I particularly agree that women arriving here should be fully informed as to their rights and protections and given details of organisations that can assist them if they require support at any time.

MOnica. Are you seriously saying that you believe a one week course in acculturisation will wipe out their neandathal beliefs. Or have I misunderstood your post.

At least they would then not be able to say "But we didn't know! We thought that all girls in your country were slags. No-one told us we'd be arrested for assaulting them"

True.

Not everyone is Neanderthal petra - most are good human beings who come from a different culture, but others are quite westernised. There are professional people amongst them. That doesn't necessarily mean they understand western society, but at least it gives them an opportunity to have their previous ideas challenged and to see how things are done in 'the west'.

They may be under the impression that New Year is a free-for-all of sex, because all the news programmes show people kissing everyone in sight. That would just not be done by anyone in their own culture.

I've never understood why immigrants from anywhere to anywhere are not expected as a condition of admission to learn the language of their host nation. This used to be the case in the USA (has anyone read "The Education of Hyman Kaplan"?) Classes should be given to all adults, male and female - the children pick it up quickly at school, but could do with some help too, I'm sure. In language classes they could be given information about how to live in the local society as well. This could be only of benefit to them as well as to the citizens of the host nations, but whether it isn't done because of money or misplaced political correctness, I don't know.

I would be very surprised if there's not an organised programme for refugees. It maybe the case that it's not compulsory and that should change to be a condition of continued residence.

I am surprised that asylum seekers are not made to stay in reception centres until their case is decided. Perhaps the sheer volume if numbers means this isn't the case at the moment. I find it hard to believe all the men involved on NYE are legally in Germany.

My perception is a lack of organisation or structure for asylum seekers and refugees. I wonder what the average German's perception is?

I was very ashamed to read that the English Defence League (EDL) founder Tommy Robinson addressed the anti-immigration Pegida protesters at the rally yesterday in Cologne. I hate the thought of Germans thinking he represents the views of the British public.

Wilma I suppose all over europe, there are ordinary folk who feel ashamed by the anti immigration/extreme right groups that are, inevitably, growing in our midst.

Like you, I'd had other nations to believe that the EDL or BNP represent the majority of folks in the UK. Events in Cologne and other cities over the new year celebration period appear to have shaken most of us to our fundamentals. I feel for Angela Merkel, who seems to be a good politician, motivated by compassion and good sense so far as the war in Syria is concerned.

I agree that a week's 'acculturalisation' course won't correct years of opposite conditioning but it's surely something that ought to be incorporated into any acclimatisation/informative course for those newly arrived asylum/refugee individuals. It's a bit like the fairly difficult efforts made to teach those of us working with people about racisim and equality. It wasn't an easy task and those attempting to enlighten course members often went home exhausted but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.

Saira Khan puts paid to the idea that what happened in Cologne was due to migrants' exposure to western pornography, or seeing scantily clad women or in any way the fault of the women concerned

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3392189/SAIRA-KHAN-Asian-woman-know-misogyny-well.html

Samira Khan did well to speak out, although only what she says about the UK could be regarded as news.

Coincidently today on the Independent website, I came across a photo gallery about 19 countries where sexual violence has become a way of life. It's part of an article about Amber Amour, an anti-feminist blogger who was raped. You need to scroll down the page to find the photo gallery -

19 countries

Over 500 reports have been made to the Cologne police now, about 40% alleging sexual offences.

If I am not mistaken countries such as Denmark , Netherlands already have such courses which include cultural instruction , including how to behave with regard to the female population of the 'host' nation.

Wouldn't there be some sort of course in place already? Along with English language lessons. I'm quite sure those men new quite well what they did was wrong, and against the law.

knew

Should go to bed.

I don't think that people who are claiming asylum should be placed in reception centres. It would, in effect, be imprisonment. And since there is I believe a huge backlog in investigating claims, it could be quite a long imprisonment.

Failed asylum seekers are held in detention centres and there have been some very bad reports coming out of them of intimidation, sexual assault and racism. Not all those who seek asylum will be genuine but for those who are and who have possibly had some terrible experiences, I think it would be wrong to treat them like criminals.

Eloethan I thought about that before I posted saying I think they should be in reception centres. I can't think of another option and believe it's the reception centres that should be improved, rather than asylum seekers being allowed to join our society without going through the necessary process. It seems to me it's the lesser of two evils. What would you suggest as an alternative?

Petra, no I am not suggesting that a short course would change their beliefs, but it would make it clear what the standards and rules are in the society they were moving into and what the sanctions will be if they flout them. And as I said such a course could cover many other much less contentious matters that would make assimilation into society easier if they understood them.

I mentioned, either further up this thread or in another that when I was at work we sent British families on acculturisation courses before sending them abroad. These courses did not turn them into Egyptians, or Indians or Nigerians so that they immediately thought and had the cultural values of those countries, but it did mean they learnt what behaviours were and were not acceptable within those societies, that they understood them and avoided any behaviour that would offend people in those countries while they were there.

jinglbellsfrocks, I understand that, at the moment they are just given a sheet of paper with a few hints and tips on it.

I think language courses are provided, but most of these immigrants have only been in Germany for weeks or a few months so as yet their grasp of German is not good.

Wilmaknickersfit If these cases were being resolved in a timely manner, perhaps there would be a case for reception centres. They would provide a reasonable standard of housing, companionship and basic support, as opposed to people being left to their own devices, living in sub-standard accommodation and possibly being drawn into bad company. Also language and cultural orientation courses could be held. But the asylum claims backlog is so great that it would be unjust to detain people for maybe several years (and would probably lead to unrest).

Mail January 2014
"The pile of 'pending' applications waiting to be dealt with has soared by almost a quarter in a year, with the most dramatic rises since Home Secretary Theresa May shut the discredited UK Border Agency.........

"........Asylum cases are now the responsibility of UK Visas and Immigration within the Home Office." [where a large number of staff were made redundant, in some cases given generous "exit" packages, and then re-employed when there was a furore about people being unable to renew their passports]

"One immigration lawyer told MailOnline that Home Office Presenting Officers dealing with asylum cases are now judged on their success rates, so if they think they will lose a case it will often be withdrawn.

"When these withdrawn decisions are sent back to case owners, it is not unusual for them to get caught up in the backlog of delayed decisions,' the lawyer said."

Mail October 2014

"There are still 11,000 asylum-seekers in the UK who have been waiting for at least seven years to be told if they can stay in the country, a group of MPs has said, as immigration officials fail to get to grips with long-standing backlogs of claims."

Other countries, like Sweden, also have large numbers of asylum seekers' claims to process and there don't appear to be any reports of the sort of chaos that is present in our own system. Perhaps it would be a good idea to look at how other progressive countries deal with the matter, with a view to making our own system more efficient. It seems to me that we need far more well trained staff to deal with asylum applications and that the system of giving incentives for finalising applications is creating more problems than it solves.

Other countries like Sweden do have problems with immigration matters.