Worrying situation

GillT I think it might be a good idea for you to read my post again before getting so agitated! Or maybe you read one without reading the other? If you only read the last one I can assure you he did far worse than touching my knee!

The bit you seem to have missed was "Talking about what happens here as the post has widened to include that". Your post to me implies I was talking about the OP.

These assaults also happened in Zurich ,in Finland and Sweden. Several Iraqi men were arrested on suspicion of coordinating attacks in Finland I believe.

It's fixed now petra.

Checking. Having probs posting.

Nonnie. Good for you. Commonsense at last.

Nonnie this wasn't a bit of knee touching for heavens sake. Read the reports. It was a mass sexual assault, hands were pushed up skirts, into knickers, is that graphic enough for you? I dont think a shriek and a slap would do much do you?

You may be right jingle I don't know which is why I posted it. It used to simply be that you pushed him off or, at the worst, gave him a slap, and then it was over. I never thought of it as harassment or assault at the time, just the way things were. A famous DJ 'assaulted' me in the 60s but I wouldn't dream of telling the police now as it was the sort of thing they did in those days and I see no point in ruining his old age. It hasn't ruined my life!

Jingle

I did wonder , I think we can agree it was merely the timing of our posts that made it appear as such.

[dove]

Terribull

My post of yesterday says that is exactly what Angela Merkel has said.

"We'll need to examine whether we've done everything that's needed in terms of 'expulsions' from Germany so we send a clear signal to those who aren't willing to obey our legal standards".

The introduction of lack of clothing, alcohol consumption, behaviour by the women who reported their attacks has little to no relevance at all when discussing the attacks that took place in Germany .

There were large groups of what the German people are readily calling Immigrants undertaking the attacks, indeed Angela Merkel describes it as the assaults touch on the "coexistence of cultures" she also says "The events in Cologne raise very serious questions that go beyond Cologne, whether there are connections, common practices of behaviour and is there something like 'contempt' for women among certain groups".

You are in my opinion correct to point out when two diverse media outlets report facts such as the Daily Mail and The Guardian there is an immediate preconception by quite a few people to simply put their prejudices against them and don't look at the story in it's rational, factual content and the discussion folds like a stack of cards when the facts point in a direction that does not suit their 'sensitivities'.

The attacks were carried out on women wearing clothing for winter weather, even sometimes accompanied by male companions! , it was the sheer size of numbers of the men perpetrating their total disregard for the German women and if you can watch the televised reports on Aljazeera and Russia Today as they have covered this story more openly and from the start . The things reported are shocking both in what abuse the women had to suffer and the sheer b----y arrogance of the attackers believing the Germans were fair game and nothing would be done to punish them. Hopefully the German nation has more sense than to put up with this behaviour and Merkel puts her money where her mouth is.

Wouldn't that be sexual harassment rather than assault nonnie?

I totally agree with POGS' post.

Talking about what happens here as the post has widened to include that I wonder what is now considered as sexual assault compared to what we would have thought in the 60s/70s? I read of a woman who complained about a man putting his hand on her knee and following her to the lift and suggesting she went to his room. Is that sexual assault? If it is then perhaps the figures reported are understandable.

I suspect that men don't report 'sexual assault' as much as women because their interpretation of what it means is more narrow.

I suppose it is impossible to work out when flirting becomes assault and would be different depending upon the perception of the person affected.

I would think it likely that the Guardian shut down the online responses was because they became too racist!

POGS I wasn't referring to your post.

I think it is ridiculous to include any mention of young drunken and under-dressed women in this subject. The happenings in Cologne were nothing at all to do with that. It almost belittles the enormity of what happened. And what it could mean for European cities in terms of tourism, apart from anything else.

I'm not sure where you got that impression from Jing, the conversation did digress somewhat when some of us drew contrasts between our own experiences when we were young and how some young women objectify themselves these days, they were just general observations. We were not alluding to the women of Cologne at all,I thought the assaults were outrageous and the young woman, Michelle, who came forward to describe her awful experiences, was very brave indeed. I did make the point in the final paragraph of my last post that Germany needs to address the situation, preferably by expelling any prospective asylum seekers who are found guilty of these crimes, primarily for the sake of German women, but also for social cohesion, they really have a potential tinder box on their hands.

It did occur to me that maybe some of the men were "agent provocateurs" planted by IS, along with terrorists, to maybe stir things up and derail the Merkel project.

I have been following the thread on Mumsnet because sometimes it is interesting to see the comments from what I assume is a different age demographic. One line of thought that has come up a number of times, is that whilst the DM has a tendency to sensationalise news items such as this one, The Guardian on the other hand, whilst covering it, have shut down debate their on line posts and the suggestion is that, as with the Rotheram grooming scandals, the left do not like to debate issues that they find uncomfortable. One woman made the comment that womens' rights would be pushed aside so as "not to rock the boat" on this one.

One key factor that underpins a large part of this issue at home and in Germany is just plain alcohol. Overconsumption by young girls here leads them to disinhibited states but ,I think crucially, alcohol is not available in some of these Muslim countries. The young migrant men could be quite unaccustomed to it hence their behaviour at Hogmanay? Just a thought.

I did NOT read that into jane's or POG's posts

I did it read that into janes's or POG's posts at all.

I don't agree at all with any suggestion that women are in some way to blame for putting themselves at risk. I feel women should be able to dress as they please and walk where they wish to, at whatever time of the day or night, without being accused of making themselves vulnerable.

I absolutely disagree with the opinion expressed that feminism has not done women any favours. I think it is the lack of feminism that makes women vulnerable because many of them have bought into the notion that their principal worth is their attractiveness to men.

I was not saying that the men who carried out these assaults should not be punished. I think it's vital that a strong message is sent out that any sort of sexual harassment or assault is not acceptable and will be severely dealt with. I was saying it is obviously totally untrue to state that European men "don't act like this" (i.e. sexually assault or rape women) - they do.

Jingle

My post was not saying that!

No jingl that wasn't what I was saying at all, if you were talking to me.

The bit I don't understand is some of the men involved in the Cologne attacks are known to the police because of criminal activity. If as reported, groups of men are hanging around on street corners and some are known to be involved in criminal activity, why has this not been addressed before? I find it hard to believe all of these men are in Germany legally, so why is this not being investigated?

I worked with Germans for several years and worked there for a few days a couple of times a month in three or four parts of the country, including one which had been part of East Germany. One of my oldest friends has a German mother and I know the German side of the family.

Admittedly I have not spoken to any of them about the sexual attacks, but antisocial behaviour and public disorder of the kind we're reading about just doesn't fit with my perception of German attitudes. I would have expected the sharp shock approach with little delay in it being carried out and no second chances. Where is the usual German efficiency and discipline?

I absolutely agree with Monica. It is important for new arrivals to understand the culture of the host country. I saw something about Wales and they showed the leaflet they were giving to newly arrived immigrants including points such as it is not acceptable to spit in the street. I don't think it made any mention of behaviour towards women and I think this is a big issue when the gulf between western liberal attitudes and traditional Islamic practice is so huge. A leaflet wouldn't be much use to people who either can't read, or can't read English so a short course would help, with bilingual helpers/translators perhaps. Oh but these are challenging times.

Jingle. It's an age thing.

indeed jings what a depressing slant this thread has taken. Only one small step from they brought it on themselves by dressing in a provocative way they were inebriated to.....perhaps it would be safer if women stayed at home. Many years ago, someone, possibly Germaine Greer said that if there is a rapist on the loose in a town, we shouldnt keep our women locked up, we should keep the men locked up. The behaviour of women in this country is of no consequence when we are horrified and frightened by the mass sexual assaults in Germany.

So, are you all saying that the women out celebrating the New Year in Cologne, we're all putting themselves up for it?

Well, that's a different way of looking at a situation that the rest of Europe is disgusted about.

Only on Gransnet.