Prince Charles in Ireland

And I have been discussing events within my living memory. Those things are harder to forget because of the emotions felt when they happened.

I imagine every single country has a past littered with wars, oppression and some kind of terrorism. Small countries got larger by conquering their neighbours and it was not the custom to be magnanimous to the defeated side. Those who had been subjugated fought guerilla wars for centuries, and memories of past atrocities fuelled traditional contempt for "the other" in both directions. Very, very few alliances lasted long enough for the parties to merge happily into one unit.

Within the mainland of the UK, there were bloody wars between the various tribes and regions, not to mention those with foreign invaders. You don't need to cross to Ireland to find evidence of confiscated land, looted treasure, disenfranchised and enslaved natives.

At some point, the warring sides HAVE to put the past into a museum and get on with living together and building an equal and co-operative society. It takes statesmanship and magnanimity to do that with dignity.

Terri, I do not hold the English responsible for atrocities carried out many years ago, I do not hold this generation of Germans responsible for the war. I do agree with moving on but difficult when some have no wish to and choose to glory in the past but get very miffed if the truth of the past is brought up.

Moving on can only be a success if all do so

I sometimes wonder about the Germans. Well, they're the same people....

That will get deleted. (it's ok HQ. Don't need an email. )

I'm not pursuing this any further. You'll be glad to hear.

jbf. "How can anyone who once condoned the cruelty that went on before the peace process suddenly become decent, honourable human beings?"
Does this include the members of the British government who issued the orders, and the soldiers who served in N. Ireland and carried them out?

I don't know why you brought up "Rule Britannia" Anniebach it's a Jingoistic anachronism from the mid 18th century. It doesn't resonates now. I can't see anyone hearing it in England, stand in reverance, hand to heart American style.

I have Irish grandmother on one side, I went to Catholic schools and had many friends with Irish parents, I never thought it was worse when English people were blown up, I thought and do think any loss of life through terrorism is shocking and awful. I am well aware of the history of Ireland. My mother told me that her mother's people were Fenians once. I sympathise with the objectives of the Irish Nationalist but not their methods. Indiscriminate killing of innocent people is murder. The Irish victims didn't deserve that and neither did those English blown up or injured here on the main land. I think Prince Charles has been magnanimous in extending an Olive branch.

The man I most admire is the father of the boy who was killed while out shopping [was it in Warrington]. So much dignity and lack of hatred; I could never have been like that.

Whaaat???!!!

that was to trisher

Cruelty wasn't confined to one side of this conflict jbf. British soldiers acting on orders from British ministers killed and tortured innocent people. If you are condemning the people who were responsible are you only condemning one side or everyone? I think we should accept what happened and move on. If IRA members are never to be considered "decent human beings" does the same apply to everyone involved?

I do agree with you trisher. I will have to say one thing though and that is, I don't know how Irish people are treated in England these days but, when we used to go to Ireland there were several occasions when people came up behind us and spoke to us in a very unpleasant way [this was in Dublin] and a friend of mine who was in Ireland with her husband, who had Irish connections went to the toilet in the pub where they were drinking abd was followed in by some girls who pined her up against a wall. This happened just a few years ago . For all the warmth and friendliness that I've met with in Ireland it was the unpleasantness that has stayed with me and upset me greatly.

Tegan, unpleasant but that goes on in the four UK countries , go back a few decades and boarding houses in England had no Irish notices in the window. What I don't understand is why Charles is chocolate but Adams still a villain. Even a tea cup viewed as a secret sneer , silly

trisher, sometimes, for individuals, the emotions can be the ruling factor in a judgement. As my feelings towards Gerry Adams is hardly likely to cause any trouble to anyone else, I am content with that.

I have been to Ireland for holidays and have met with only kindness and good manners. The only time I have been treated discourteously was when my cousin, who was working in Eire at the time, brought his Irish girlfriend to visit us in our married quarter in Londonderry in 1973. She barely spoke to either DH or myself and clearly wished to be somewhere else. No-one forced her to come and I wish she hadn't, given her attitude. It was almost as if, every time she looked at either of us, she was silently screaming "Get out of my country, you shouldn't be here". God knows we hadn't asked to be there and that went for every other member of the British Army. My cousin went on to marry a lovely Irish lady with whom I get on famously, and has lived in the republic for many years.

And Trisher, how do you substantiate your remark that British soldiers tortured innocent people. We fought their so called bloody 'war' with one hand tied behind our backs and as for torture, I don't think the British Army can teach the IRA much about that!

Operation Demetrius Greyyduster en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius
Fully admitted to now.

I wish their hands had been tied behind their backs on Bloody Sunday, it was this massacre that caused many to join the IRA, their membership soared

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am sorry, that was rude. This thread has touched some raw nerves and it is time I left it.

Same here greyduster. Enough of our troops lost their lives trying to keep their peace for them. To protect them and their families.

Having seen what the bombs can do, I stand by my original post.

I certainly don't recall the British planting bombs and then setting off more when people arrived to help.

No, I will never forgive or forget.

There were atrocities on both sides but it was hardly surprising that an "army" formed to counter an unjust and corrupt political system that tacitly supported the discrimination that Irish Catholics were subjected to in almost every sphere of their lives. Brutality and violence are never right but when one group is forcefully oppressed by another it's nearly always the outcome.

I think it is up to the people whose lives have been devastated by such atrocities who must decide whether they can forgive and forget or at least try not to be vengeful. Fortunately, some can.

Our own forces have been implicated in all sorts of atrocities and brutality, including the killing of Baha Mousa in Iraq, who was tortured and beaten to death by British soldiers and whose death was certified by a military doctor as occurring through natural causes.

I find that post confusing.

Anyway, the peace agreement has been signed, and is on force. So why are we going over old ground?