Children get in the way of greatness...

Do people actively seek greatness, whatever that is? Many seek fame & success, which I see as being quite a different matter.

The concept of greatness is so individually specific to the one who thinks someone holds some kind of greatness, that it is impossible to quantify. Then of course the one who is acclaimed as having greatness may feel quite differently about the matter.

I read somewhere that Graham Greene found it difficult to spend much time in his children's company even though he loved them.

He would equally have found it difficult to achieve greatness had he had to work in some high profile, high status job.

J K Rowling achieved it because she had a child - otherwise she would have been working with no time.

And that is great Leiticia- it seems you had a choice, and made the one that suited you- that you really wanted. And that is brilliant and wonderful.

But women (and men) should be able to make other and different choices- if it is what THEY want. And women, still today, too rarely have that choice- even those who do go back to work who soon come to an almost impassable threshold- first as mothers, and then because they are out of the loop and too old. Nobody, but absolutely nobody, is saying here the only way to achiever greatness is via academia or professional/business senior management- and that being a full time sah mother is not 'great' in itself- just that there should be more open choice, and an acceptance (among women too- QED this thread) that it is possible to be a great mother, and also pursue the top of a career, if this is what that woman chooses to do (providing every effort is made to ensure the secure and 'happy' (whatever that means) raising of children. There are of course many mothers who do not work, at whatever level. and do not insure that happens.

And an acceptance too that some mothers will choose to work, not just for financial reasons- but because they perhaps studied hard, and achieved a level of excellence and expertise that they do not want to lose, or waste. Reading between the lines here, perhaps some of you think it is 'wrong'? The needs of children are paramount- and intelligent professionals are fully aware that this has to be a priority- and that systems have to be put in place to secure this- be it via family or professionals.

And forgot- because they truly love their jobs and get a lot back from it. It is still hinted at and more, that if a mother loves her job too, she somehow loves her kids less. A mother who is happy and fulfilled (yeah, I know- silly word) at her work and comes home happy to see her chiildren and spend real quality time with them- may well be a better mother than one frustrated by being a mom and housewife, day in, day out. Again, each to their own.

Of course it is all about choice. I just dispute that paid employment, however high you get, or however much you get paid, gives greatness.
I also dispute that many people, men or women, actually want greatness in the first place. Margaret Thatcher wanted it and got it, but she gave up a lot to achieve it. You can't have it all- and people have to decide which they want.
You aim high in your career in order to live the life you want to live i.e. to give you more choices and you are working to live. Many seem to have lost sight of this and are living to work. A few people probably like that and nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be seen as an aim for those who don't.

Many people spend their lives doing pretty pointless jobs anyway - even those that have high status and pay.

Who decides what "greatness" is? The sorts of statues that we see in big cities are often of military leaders and famous politicians and in my view tend to reinforce "establishment" figures who represent the status quo.

Is she saying that children get in the way of greatness, for women and for men?

No, she's talking about women. This is the first paragraph of the article (all you're allowed to read without subscribing!)

"The glass ceiling has been broken, or at least women have got close enough to give it a wipe. But what about this new category, the glass coffin lid: the prize of being notable enough to get your obituary in The Times? The women who made it into this elite dead squad tell us something we know but can’t bring ourselves to say out loud: children get in the way of greatness."

If you are a good father and don't just see them for a hour in the evening- if that- then it will get in their way too. Times are changing. Margaret Thatcher had Dennis behind her- putting her first.

Leticia:

I just dispute that paid employment, however high you get, or however much you get paid, gives greatness.

And there I totally agree with you.

In some cases, a woman is clearly better at 'working' and her OH better at looking after kids and house making. But what if both partners are equally brilliant at their job, and have worked equally hard at getting there. What do they do- not have children? Or too a dice, pluck straws?

Imagine 2 young doctors- 9 years of study, years of junior doctoring with very long hours. Rise through the ranks, become Senior Reg and on the edge of becoming Consultants. Then they have a baby. Should it automatically be her who gives up the job she is so good at- and absolutely loves. The job the country has paid a fortune in training and getting there. The one who saves and transforms lives for the better.

Working part-time when at the top of one's career is not always possible. Which one gives up the dream of becoming a Consultant, and becomes a part-time GP? Or do they look at alternative ways of making it work- being excellent parents, but also continuing being great doctors/surgeons. Finding a way to put a team together that enables this, with quality care, love and security.

OH was a brilliant father btw- but working 90+ hours a week meant that he often did not see them at all for days. Nobody batted an eyelid and all accepted that is the way it is- but if a mother worked these kind of hours, she would be considered by some as a 'bad' mother.

There are brilliant and terrible parents out there, and anything in between. Some bad parents work, work part-time, stay at home, by choice or due to circumstances, etc, etc, etc,. And some excellent parents too.

toss a dice, sorry.

Of course it shouldn't automatically be the mother. They are equal parents and it is up to them to make it work.
Children need love, security and time. They don't want quality time- they want time. They need to know that if they are in a school play both parents will be there- they won't have something more important and have to delegate Granny etc. At a push one parent might have to miss, but not both. If they need to go to A&E they want a parent - not to find that work is more important. They will get in the way- they are very inconvenient.
However- I still don't know what work has to do with greatness unless you happen to be in the small minority who invent something, find a cure etc.

Agree that the word 'greatness' was badly chosen. Which word would you use for a great doctor, teacher or other top professional/business leader in this context?

But are you really saying that two top professionals who have worked so hard, and have trained for many many years to reach their level of excellence (at the cost of taxpayers money most of the time)- should stay at home, or at least one of them- because a child has a school play once in a blue moon, or has an accident requiring A&E for 16+ years?

Of course working couples will plan ahead to ensure they are, or one of them is, at the school play- as they know how important it is. And of course they will cancel everything and rush home, to school or straight to A&E if required. There migh be occasions when this is just not going to be possible- and everything will be done to ensure someone who truly cares for the child will be there if that happens.

Role-models are terribly important too. What message is given when a parent or parents have nothing else to do but to just be there, in case, day in, day out? My mother always worked- I was so proud of her and the fact she was different to other mums. My DDs said the same. Without role models that aim to achieve their potential (and that means so many different things, I agree)- women will always sit back and accept that the choice is not really theirs.

It sounds to me that Helen Rumbelow has hankerings to get into The Times obituary.
And if she has children, is afraid that she wont make it.

I think that if you have children, yes they will get in the way for both men and women. Good. They are supposed to.

Children get in the way of everything. So do adults. Dealing with it is called living.

Children change your life - fact.
They need time.
I am 63 yrs old- even now if my mother is only prepared to give me 'quality time' because she is too busy with 'more important things' - then I don't want to know! Children do not want a slot with so called 'quality' time- they want time. Of course both parents can work and have child care, but they can't both be putting work first - all the time.

And who wants to be in the Times obituary?!
Live life and enjoy it- don't measure it by what people say after you are dead.
I want to be fondly remembered by those who knew and loved me- the public at large don't matter.

I was thinking about mundane jobs and greatness. T. S. Eliot popped into my mind – arguably greater than J. K. Rowling.

Sounds rather selfish I have to say (me, me , me) - I think it is good for children to know they parents love them absolutely, but also have other interesting things to do (especially 63 old ones;) ) lol. If you as a mother you have to be 100% available for your children, then QED this thread.

Of course you should have interesting things to do, of course you should work, of course you shouldn't be available 100% to your children. All that is very bad for them. At the same time you shouldn't have those dreadful words 'quality time' to make up for the fact that actually you haven't got time for them.

You have to be very determined and willing to give something all your time and effort, or most of it, if you want greatness. Very few people, men or women do. Tney generally compromise . I think very few people set out thinking 'I want to be great in some way- I want to be in tne Times obituary column'! You won't be able to read it.

What the hell is quality time? Surely going round the supermarket with a three-year old helping put the vegetables into the bags – my grandson especially enjoys choosing the mushrooms – and talking about the ingredients needed for supper is just as "quality" as going to the library together – which said grandson also loves. Leaving him to get on with making play dough pizzas while I chop 10 kg tomatoes is good too.

We see to be muddling this - it is about 'greatness' - and not about having a satisfying career. You might get to be head of BP ,but that isn't greatness - it is just a fulfilling position for the person (if that is what they want).