Children get in the way of greatness...

I do think that if both parents are doing high powered, responsible jobs and working fairly long hours, it is difficult to spend relaxed and unstructured time with children because time is so limited.

Many men in senior positions say in later life that they regret seeing so little of their children (and many children say they regret it also) and presumably women may also look back with similar regrets.

I think parents who can survive on one salary or with one parent working less hours are fortunate. The people I feel really sorry for are those who are in ordinary jobs and who don't earn very much but who nevertheless can't manage on one wage. They can't afford to employ nannies or domestic help and at the end of the working day they still have to cook and do all the domestic tasks, leaving little time or energy for the children.

I will start at the beginning.

Marie Curie is one of the small band (men and women) who really are the greatest - of course I am interested.

If one if my family are having to undergo an operation of course I want to talk to the surgeon, oncologist, or anyone else treating them- in privacy, in a professional setting.
I do not wish to talk about their job in general in a social setting. I should think they are very pleased seeing as the bane of their life is going to a party and people wanting to discuss their ailments! It would be very unprofessional anyway- it needs to be confidential, with colleagues at work.
A female bank manager would be a great person to talk things over if I wished to embark on a project etc. I would go to the bank and it doesn't bother me if I see a man or a woman- as long as they are good at their job. I wouldn't expect free advice in a social setting. If I don't need advice I am not particularly interested.
Likewise I have had interesting talks with Head teachers- I don't need them now. I love talking about education in general, having been a teacher but am aware that others may well find it boring.
Talking 'shop' is largely uninteresting to those not in that particular field.

I am quite happy to go to a talk about anyone and their job- as long as it is well prepared and amusing and they are a good speaker.
However in a social situation there are far more interesting topics.

I went to a meeting recently where we had to introduce ourselves to tne person next to us. Afterwards it was refreshing to find that no one had used their marital status, children, grandchildren or employment to define who they were.

At no point whatsoever did I say that people didn't discuss childcare before they had the child!! That remark was to women who haven't got it worked out, are aggrieved that their career comes second and irritated that they are the one to take the day off if the child is ill. Obviously they haven't discussed it if they are upset because they do the washing up, organise birthdays, babysitters etc. Or they have discussed it without a satisfactory conclusion.

Goodness only knows where I was supposed to have said that women should pick less intelligent men to be carers!! I pointed out that it didn't necessarily have to automatically be the woman who did the lion's share. The examples that I gave were of men who were really happy to work part time- highly intelligent people can actually enjoy not channelling it all into a career!
It is a matter for the couple how they work out childcare- one way of doing it won't suit another.We are individuals.

I know it can be done. I also know lots of examples where it is done badly.
I too take my hat off to those who do it well.
I take your point that the higher up you are the more you are likely to get time for the sports day etc but the buck stops with you and work may have to come first.

I still don't see what careers and childcare have to do with 'greatness' - a whole different debate- very few men or women reach it. It depends entirely on the field of 'greatness' as to whether children hinder it.

Women in top jobs of course need help today to make it work. But their employees are not servants- a qualfied nanny is as highly paid as a primary school teacher- and very well looked after and respected. Very different to slaves. Cleaners and gardners are paid a good wage, and all social benefits, etc- by honest employers. So a woman who works provides proper employment for others too.

I do hope you come back Leticia- and I do apologise if I misread your posts- although I am not sure how. You are clearly saying that couples who are both talented, both hard-working, both love their job and are keen to progress in their career- should either not have children, or toss for who gives up their career- as it is impossible to be good parents otherwise- and that one has to give up their professional 'ambitions' (for fear of a better word).

BTW, if a woman works part-time after having children- an accident, school play or sports day can still happen during her working hours. In fact, employers are far less likely to be sympathetic if someone works part-time and asks for time-off. If parents work very hard- it is much easier to put their foot down and say 'I shall take the morning off for the school-play' etc- and of course, women who are Senior Managers and do their job really well, can organise to deputise and give instructions that will free them for said school play. The higher the job, in many ways, the more in control and flexible you can be. It can work- it does work - but yes, it is very hard ... work. I take my hat off to those women.

Women in the past who were mothers had servants which allowed them to focus all their energies on work.
Little has changed. For a mother to have a successful career these days they need servants/willing grandparents/a partner who is not career focussed or some combination of those. The only exception would be if they work from home like JKR.
The Blairs must have had an army of help. Ditto Yvette Cooper and Ed Balls, particularly when they were in government. It must be a horrendous juggling act particularly in politics where the hours are particularly unsocial.
Ruth Kelly stepped down from her career to concentrate on her family life. It is rumoured that T Blair also retired a little early because the family was suffering.

You have misunderstood my posts so completely that I don't even know where to start, granjura. You have misrepresented me from start to finish!
I simply haven't time at the moment to put what I really meant. I will have a go later.
Very true nightowl - I have a friend with a child with profound special needs. All thought of a career have had to go. And her husband can't be the one to give up his career- he couldn't cope with the situation and has left.

You can plan as well as you like before you have children, but all that will be blown out of the water if you have a child with additional needs of any kind. Children can't always fit into adult lives and plans neatly, and then there's a choice to be made by mothers and fathers. Greatness might not be high on their agenda; surviving and giving their child the best life and the best opportunities they can might become a priority. And to me those parents could be described as great - but they won't be remembered after they're gone, by anyone except those who loved them.

Very true, soontobe - it is great for personal satisfaction, but of utterly no interest to anyone else- unless they are in a similar job.
If I meet a surgeon I certainly don't want to know anything about her job!

Leticia- tell that to Marie Curie. Or to the surgeon who will be operating on your grandchild, or any of your loved ones. Or the oncologist who would be treating any of them. Or to the great business woman that provides employment for them, or gives them a chance to progress in their career. To the female bank manager who will understand that women who want to embark on projects and careers need special support, to great female Head teachers who will understand the needs of our students and 6th formers with a female perspective, and so on.

Happy International Womens' Day - very sad that this thread shows how topical it still is, and how much there is still to do. Seems that often the men in our lives understand us who need more than being mums- as much as we love being mums and how dedicated we are as mums- as parents.

How insulting that you are saying that parents who both have a career do not discuss those issues before they have children. And do not make sure all eventualities are covered, including emergency care, trips to A&E, sports days and school shows. VERY insulting actually. It is very hard, and take a toll on the parents- but they do it and it works very well.

Are you truly saying that very intelligent women should pick 'less intelligent' men (without their own ambitions and careers, tongue and cheek) to be the carers. Now that would be a truly backward step for humanity, it is laughable. Both parents can work at responsible jobs without the children suffering- au contraire, mon amie, au contraire (but yes, it is not easy- so don't insult them, please).

Just because you can't see how it can be done, does not mean it can't. It can.

Very true Jane- my 4x great grandmother went off to Canada for 10 yrs and had 4 children out there. ( a wild place in those days)

Very true, soontobe - it is great for personal satisfaction, but of utterly no interest to anyone else- unless they are in a similar job.
If I meet a surgeon I certainly don't want to know anything about her job! I think we would stick to hobbies, books read etc

I often think that my Grandmothers' generation was so much more intrepid than my mother's. Different circumstances of course but eg one moved to the back of beyond in India and the other raised the money to buy, equip and drive a mobile canteen in the war. She drove across the country to get to the Clydebank blitz. She did much more than that too. What about Elsie Inglis who organised a mobile hospital run by women in WW1? Maybe the challenges for women are different now and only measurable by celebrity , seniority at work or just money? Those old girls were great!

Lack of money generally is a big block to freedom.
Greatness was generally something achieved, historically, by a small number of men with money.
The vast majority of the population didn't have the opportunities. My great grandfather was very intelligent, but worked as a labourer from early teens to his death aged 73 yrs.
Those that had the means had lots of servants - their wives only had 'quality time' with the children. It wasn't the children- it was the norms of society holding them back.
It was possible to achieve greatness from humble beginnings (for a man) but if he got a wife and children his chances generally went ,as he had the daily struggle of roof over heads and food on tables.
Luckily things move on. My grandfather left school at 12 yrs but he managed to improve the family situation , by working in partnership with his wife ( and having less children). However he didn't achieve greatness.
Things move on further and it is up to the couple to sort it. I can't think why any woman has to ask her husband to wash up- it should have been established from first meeting that women don't have special washing up skills!

I think that a lot of people dont realise, that what one person thinks is great about themselves, ie something they have achieved well at work, that most other people dont really care.
They are busy with their own lives, and even if mundane, are busy living it and are content.
What someone else is doing, is actually pretty irrelevant.
And I think that that is the way it should be.

The culture is changing. Men are getting more freedom too.
I know a lot who are moving away from spending every moment at work.
I know one who was at the head of a global company but he was able to retire before he was 50yrs- doesn't have to work and can concentrate on the things he really wants to do. Another is only early thirties, married but no children, and he does a job share so that he has time to go walking and climbing. Another finds that doing 2 night shifts a week gives them enough money and he has time to spend with the baby while his wife does part time hours too, another does shifts in a fairly boring job but it gives him time to do school runs and concentrate on his jewellery making business.
I think it is all way more exciting to find ways as a couple where you can both have time to do things that you really want to do, share childcare and get off the tread wheel of having to work long hours climbing a career ladder.

Nothing wrong with climbing a career ladder, if that is what you want. But it is only possible for both parents to have high flying careers, at the same time, if you have wrap around childcare and accept that you will most likely have to miss some sport's days, school plays etc. I can't see why it has to be the woman who organises it all, gets the birthday presents etc BUT one of the couple have to do it. Something to sort before they have the baby - too often assumptions are made without discussions.

This thread seems to have turned into whether women should work or whether they should stay at home- huge assumptions being made that I, and my mother, were at home being available 100% of the time!

I didn't think it was about that. I thought it was about 'greatness' - something very few people, men or women, achieve. And to me that has nothing, necessarily, to do with power, money or status. Being head of a giant company doesn't, in itself, make you great- although it may give a lot of personal satisfaction (and money, power and status).

Trashy novels?

What is the male equivalent of "chick lit" – I suspect that there isn't one – but perhaps there should be an equally dismissive term for tales of derring do, fast cars and serial seduction.

Well, I'm not sure that there weren't great women artists, poets, etc., (some art experts express the view that Gwen John's art was as good as her brother Augustus's work). I think it's just that the culture was such that women were not thought capable of doing anything much outside the home - their minds were too taken up with the domestic issues that were their "natural calling" (!). So their paintings, poems, books, etc., etc., were unlikely to be taken seriously, which is why some women writers used a male pen name.

I think to some extent that idea still prevails. Women novelists sometimes complain that although male writers often cover similar themes to female writers, their books are treated very differently in the way they are marketed and in the critiques they receive. Recently I heard a well known woman author (can't remember who it was) saying that if a man writes a book concerning complex family relationships it is more likely to be considered to be a serious, literary work than something on a similar theme by a woman, and it is also more likely to be marketed primarily to women or as "easy reading".

Why is she even asking him to wash up? He should just be doing it!

I know quite a few where the man is the one who is the main carer.
Someone has to do it. Both can't have a really high flying career with no flexibility. One of them will have to deal with emergencies e.g the trip to A&E, the nanny ringing in sick first thing in the morning etc.
It is up to the couple. Although I know quite a lot where the woman's career is the primary one I know far more where the woman has chosen to work part time, have a job where they can get hours to suit.

And so they should. But 95% of the people surrounding any woman with children trying to build a career will still head straight for the woman to book playdates and birthday parties. She will be the one trying to book babysitters and racing around tidying up because she feels guilty, as someone has just accused her OH of being henpecked when she was overheard asking him to wash up occasionally.

Any woman who has a male partner of any age under retirement age who shares tasks absolutely fairly is almost as rare as hen's teeth.

But that is now up to the couple- they need to discuss it before they have children.

I think much of what stopped them then continues to stop them now.

This was in the past- they didn't get the opportunity - children or no children.

Great women artists, great women composers - how many can you name?

Time, rather than 'quality time' means that you don't get the undivided attention.

My mother had an interesting career- I had an interesting career.
However children will change your life- they only need 3 things, love, security and time.
In the past women were the main child carers- these things change and men are doing far more- as they should.
I think we are muddled with greatness. Senior management may bring you personal satisfaction- it is hardly greatness.