Help. Elf and safety issue

If doors open onto a stairwell, they have to be fire doors. Even doors in houses have to be fire doors if the houses are three storeys high, which includes many new houses.

No but you are right Galen, on the ship they were hard to open and that included the en suite door!

As I read it. The doors to hotel bedrooms are not fire doors and only self close for privacy. Certainly on boats they're not fire doors.

Galen, my husband used to be health and safety officer at the company he worked for. So he had to go through thick files and sort out the health and safety issues for builders for every building he designed.
I used to look at them and think most builders would not read, let alone understand all that.

Self-closing doors are mandatory for fire regs. It's not the self-closing that is the problem. It's that they are heavy fire doors which means they close quicker than other doors.
There are usually two types; the elbow hinge on the top of the door, or the one that replaces the hinge that works like a sash window.
You have to buy the type of closer that goes with the weight of the fire door.
We never had them on doors to en-suites. It was only to doors onto landings or corridors. There were also fire doors at the top of staircases. The idea is to contain the fire in one place of the building.
Quite often the fire regulations change, and you have to change all the doors or all the alarms. It can be very expensive, even for a small guest house. You also have to have everything checked twice a year, or we did then. That's quite expensive, too.
One year, we'd just redecorated the last bedroom, and they changed the law so that the fire alarm had to be a greater number of decibels inside the rooms, which meant that we had to put alarms in the bedrooms because the firedoors stopped the sound a bit, although when we tested all the guests could hear them, if they were in. So we then had to redecorate!

The HSE does have a website that lists ways to contact them.

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/contact.htm It isn't a very user friendly site, but you could probably send them an email and ask about the design of doors.

Thanks dj I'll try to print that out and translate it into English!
I think you can imagine the problems I have.
But on a cursory read, does it state that these doors are mandatory for bedrooms and cabins?

When we had a guest house, our doors had to be self-closing because of fire regulations. Maybe your local fire station should be able to help.

That was another reason for selling, because my husband got so that he could not open most of the doors in his own house.

"Q. Does the 'opening force' of doors in Part M 2004 equate to 'closing force' in BS 8300:2001?

A. The guidance that follows is based on consideration of Amendment 1:2005 to BS 8300:2001 (see BS 8300:2001)

The guidance relates to doors to accessible entrances, manually operated non-powered entrance doors and internal doors (see AD M 2.13, 2.17, 2.26, 3.7 and 3.10), and means that with careful selection of components, door closers may be specified that will meet the requirements of both Part B and Part M.

For disabled people to have independent access through single or double swing doors, the opening force, when measured at the leading edge of the door, should be not more than 30 N from 0° (the door in the closed position) to 30° open, and not more than 22.5 N from 30° to 60° of the opening cycle.

Where, in order to meet the above opening force limits, the door-closing device is insufficient to keep an entrance door closed against external conditions, consideration should be given to installing one of the following door closing systems:

a power operated (automatic) door - sliding, balanced or swing;
a low energy swing door;
a power operated revolving door assembly; [but note the caveats about use of revolving door assemblies in BS 8300 paragraph 6.3.5]
an entrance lobby or air lock system of inner and outer doors; or
for the purposes of Building Regulations in England and Wales, a low power rated door closer on a door fitted with a suitable latch.

Where hinged or pivoted fire resisting doors need to be accessible by disabled people, the door closing devices fitted should have 'controlled' action, conforming to the requirements of BS EN 1154:1997, Annex A, be of a variable power type and conform to the recommendations above.

Annex A to BS EN 1154 states that controlled door closing devices with a power size less than 3 are not considered suitable for use on fire/smoke door assemblies. This means that, in general, only high efficiency door closers mounted on doors with a width greater than 900 mm are likely to meet fire door requirements as well as the opening force limits described above. Controlled door closing devices of a lower power size and with relatively low efficiencies, with a lower power size and/or of a width less than 900mm may only be suitable for non-fire resisting doors.

Where the force required to open a fire resisting door on a circulation route exceeds the limits described above, an electrically powered hold open device, either stand-alone or integral in the body of the closer, which conforms to the requirements of BS EN 1155, should be installed.

The use of "swing free" controlled door closing devices should be limited to applications where doors are located for access to rooms or similar locations and not part of a circulation route.

The use of "delayed action" controlled door closing devices should similarly be avoided in circulation areas.

For non-fire resisting doors which have a requirement to self close for reasons of privacy, acoustics or energy control, controlled door closing devices should be selected, fitted and adjusted so that the opening forces are well below the limits set out above, consistent with the doors functioning as intended. It is emphasized that, for non-fire doors, door closing devices of a power size less than 3 will normally be acceptable.

The opening force should be checked using a plunger-type force measuring instrument. Where measurements cannot be taken at the leading edge, they may be taken at a point on the face of the door up to 60 mm from the leading edge, a position approximately in-line vertically with the spindle of a lever handle or the centre line of a pull handle or push plate, in which case the opening force limits can be increased by approximately 2 N.

The accuracy of force measuring instruments available on the market varies and there are inherent difficulties in measuring forces on site. It is recognized, therefore, that any measurements will be subject to a degree of imprecision which could give rise to variations of between 2 and 3 N.

The ability of a controlled door closing device to close effectively while keeping within the opening force limits depends on its efficiency and the resistances from edge seals, hinge friction, latch resistance and differential air pressure. The effect of using a low efficiency controlled door closing device is to reduce the closing force to a point where, coupled with the other resistances to closing, the door may not latch, or stay closed if unlatched. The use of high efficiency closers can reduce the force required to open the door and increase the proportion of the disabled population who can pass through independently.

In some locations in a building, a controlled door closing device incorporating a backcheck is sometimes used to prevent damage to adjacent walls or furniture and to the closer mechanism if a door is flung open with some force. However, when the door is opened slowly, the resistance effect is minimal. With some controlled door closing devices, the backcheck starts to become effective when the door is open at 70°. Care should be taken to ensure that controlled door closing devices, with or without the backcheck, allow the door to open to provide the required effective clear width.

The maximum closing force exerted by a controlled self-closing device should be within 0° and 15° of final closure. Controlled door closing devices that do not have this characteristic should be avoided.

Without regular maintenance of all door fittings, the resistances to opening and closing can increase to an extent that the ability of disabled people to pass through the door may be affected. The opening force at the door opening angles described above should therefore be checked at regular intervals."

This is on the planning portal, building regulations.
My husband used to have problems going through doors because he had fractured his spine and had no strength in his back to push. If doors closed on him he had problems. That's one reason I went everywhere with him.
If this is not what you want, look at building regulations.
You cannot be the only one with a problem.

Perhaps the cost of the automatic doors is prohibitive Galen The nursing home where my SIL lives provide fobs for those residents who are in wheelchairs so they can move about with ease. It has made a huge difference to her independence, even within the confines of the nursing home.

A lot of places do. But you would have thought that if these doors were required by building regs they would put those pads you touch to open on them.
But every time I complain about them I'm told they have to have them 'by regulations!'
I'm trying to find if this is myth or fact?

I've never understood it either Galen. It's bad enough trying to get through them with shopping bags, I've no idea how on earth you manage.

I go to a local housing with care home each week and they have wonderful doors which automatically open away from you from either direction. All shops/loos should have them!