Howard Jacobson asks

Morning Bags
I don't disagree with you and Eloethan, and I think that the pressure on young women to have Botox etc is particularly bad. Incidentally in fairness I don't think the pressure comes from plastic surgeons - more from silly magazines and the celebrity culture.
But where do ideals of beauty come in? Haven't these always been portrayed in classical Art?
Perhaps some people (I don't think it's just women, men can also be very concerned about their appearance) have always been made miserable about their appearance - a too large nose, a prominent chin or teeth - and the difference in modern times, thanks to the work of Sir Archibald McIndoe with horrifically injured airmen after WW2, they can. If someone genuinely feels their face is prematurely aged - and smoking is very ageing - is that essentially different?
I suppose it's like many examples of progress - some of the uses are adapted in ways that the originator didn't intend. I doubt whether when the Internet was developed, anyone envisaged that young people would be driven to suicide by harassment in social media.

So I suppose the concept of perfection is what is being discussed, and how that influences the individual. I think there are some people who are psychologically disturbed by their appearance which hasn't been caused by illness/trauma, but I think there are many more who want to indulge in the perfection-fantasy that much of the media peddles, which I think is a pity.

Yes, a complex issue.

What irritates me is that the external signs of ageing is becoming something that needs to be held in check. Particularly for women. Why for heaven's sake?

Morning Ffinn
Perhaps people don't like to see evidence of their own ageing because it heralds their own mortality, and reminds them of times lost that can't be regained, quite apart from the commercial and cultural pressures to conform to the cult of youth?

I agree that women have the right to do what they want with their appearance, but it saddens me to see how their character disappears and that plastic look inhibits facial expression when they go too far. There is a French woman on Celebrity Big Brother - 'Frenchy' - whose mouth has been terribly distorted by too much filler. She has clearly been a beautiful woman in her time, but now she looks ridiculous because of the permanent swelling that should not be there.

I think HJ's article was funny and a little too close for comfort in his description of the elderly woman who could very likely have osteoporosis. I have seen so many women like this in New York and Los Angeles, extremely thin and surgically altered to the extent that their old friends must struggle to recognise them.

And not just women. The late Michael Jackson went down the same path. I often, like HJ does in this article, asked 'why?' He was a good looking man before he ever have surgery, but like most who take this to extremes, I suspect he was looking for something he was never going to find.

Ah well, there's the crux—evidence of their own mortality. My attitude? Shrug. Get real. I'm not saying that in a nasty way. It expresses exactly how I feel about it with regard to myself—simple acceptance of life's reality.

The people who are really suffering a psychological trauma (disturbance? illness?) because their self-perception is not good could perhaps do better with some psychological help to increase their self-esteem rather than surgery. It is their choice though and I'm happy with that but sad also at the excessive lengths some people go to which, in the end, don't improve their looks anyway!!

As the article points out.

Sun's out. I'm off to work outside for a bit to earn some more wrinkles.

aka I always thought that poor Michael Jackson had developed a case of body dysmorphic disorder and the real tragedy was the people who preyed on him for their own financial gain. I wonder, if there is a severe case of mental ill-health, as in above, how much can be done to change that. I have no idea, I don't know. Just wondering how hard it is to make someone like that see sense (for want of a better phrase). I should imagine it is very difficult.

I was out with friends the other night and sitting at the table next to me, facing me, was a woman of about my age who had had a lot of work done. I struggled throughout my dinner not to stare . Interesting often how overdone cosmetic surgery and wearing lots of make up go hand in hand.

I don't mind my wrinkles, but I have in recent years developed brown splotches on our side of my face only (the side that faced the sun all those years I drove in a hot climate). So I've had the three largest ones "neuked" with laser, damn sore, but I'm so happy they're gone. They were bothering me.

I find it quite fascinating studying the way my face changes over time. I've never had heavy upper eyelids, yet I've noticed lately that my eyelids are beginning to head south and settle in a little fold. I can see too that I'm going to end up looking like my favourite aunt .

I haven't read the article by the way! Just jumping in

... one one side of my face, not our!

And I'm getting my walking gear on for a tramp about. Interestingly, in a walking group I sometime join, all the women have dyed hair, except me. I'm one of the youngest and am greyer than the lot of them.

Howard J assumes the woman in his story has had surgery in order to please, keep the man. I think that's rarely the case? Women who choose to have surgery usually do it in order to feel happier about themselves.

Spot on, Penguinpaperback
Bags I think reputable and ethical plastic surgeons do assess their patients' psychological state before embarking on surgery, and perhaps paradoxically those who would be disappointed by the outcome dissuaded from treatment and/or offered counselling.
I also think many people don't face up to their own mortality and then when things start happening to them in later life it comes as a big shock.

I too have earned a few wrinkles this morning, just come back from a great game of tennis.

I think you are right penguinpaperback. In the past, I have occasionally suggested to women friends (my contemporaries - at any age) that they were wearing very high heels or a lot of make-up etc to please men, they have always retorted in surprise that they weren't doing it for men but for themselves.

That's often the argument that's put forward penguin but why do women feel that their happiness is so tied up with the way they look, and why is there such a rigid "template" for what constitutes beauty?

The cosmetic surgery industry is reliant on fostering this dissatisfaction, and then represents people's decisions to undergo appearance-altering surgery as solely a matter of personal choice and thus "empowering". I feel that, when people feel compelled to change their appearance so as to conform to a rigid view of what is attractive, it is anything but empowering.

Why do women trade the grace and dignity of age for a plastic look?

Because some societies don't value old and ugly but seem to idolise youth and beauty so it's hardly surprising that some women will go down that route in order not to be thrown on the scrapheap based on nothing more than physical appearance.

There is a French woman on Celebrity Big Brother - 'Frenchy' - whose mouth has been terribly distorted by too much filler

I was shocked to hear that she was only 38 - she looks much older than that and her facial alterations are probably part of the reason; shame on the clinician that did that to her, he could have (should have?) refused.

Hollydaze Lip fillers are not usually provided by accredited plastic surgeons. It is a completely unregulated practice often carried out by beauty therapists who have been on a short weekend course.

Thank you janeainsworth - my knowledge of various enhancements is somewhat lacking. If the results are what I have seen, then it should be regulated the same as it is for clinicians. When you think of Katie Price, Pete Burns and now this Frenchy, it's almost criminal in my mind.