Women Bishops!

I'm fed up with this now.Im not playing any more.Im off to bed,with my sweet little ole Husband of 42 years.and my tiny little Yorkie.Goodnight,One tast word,there's good and bad in everybody,all people,what ever their gender.We ARE,all equal,very different most of the time,but we all contribute,to the world.I couldn't care less about women Bishops,I'm not in the least bit religious.And if a woman wants to be a Brickie,good bleddy luck to her.I wouldn't want to do it.Ok more than one word.

So, now that we have returned from our fascinating excursion into general feminism, it is very good to hear that the bar to women bishops has now been lifted. It is not a job that would ever feature in my career plan, and I seldom cross the threshold of a church, but I am delighted that those women for whom the ministry is a calling can now serve in equality alongside their male colleagues. It is about time that those who opposed them for so long read their scripture:-

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Galatians 3:28

That is a very interesting comment on M Thatcher Hollydaze and I'm sure that she would have made some different decisions if she had not had to fight her corner and maintain her dominance of the Tory party for so long. Which was, whatever you think of her, an amazing achievement. No doubt she would have been happy to deal with female bishops and archbishops.

Hollydaze where did that quote come from? I notice the spelling is American.

Indeed. There are few things more irritating than unattributed quotes.

Margret Thatcher,was a democratically elected Prime Minister,who happened to be a woman.She got to the top simply because she was the best candidate at the time.She was NOT a feminist.Im not saying I agreed with all she stood for,but I did admire her.AS A PERSON.Who happened to be female.

It is interesting JessM - when we move away from popular media stories regarding anyone (as the Americans say: the Brits love nothing more than to build someone up to stardom then they put them in a cage and continually poke them with a stick). I had heard that she had little choice but to abandon women's rights as people (probably her 'wonderfully supportive cabinet ministers) were just waiting for a reason to pick up that stick and start beating her with it (which is what they did anyway).

The quotes I took are from several sites janeainsworth - the one's I can remember visiting are:

www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/04/18/margaret_thatcher_and_feminism_118018.html

Her often misquoted statement regarding feminism is put back into context here:

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/09/margaret-thatcher-the-accidental-feminist.html - she made quite a valid point and quite rightly, imo, defended the fact that she succeeded before women's rights were supported by society.

This link doesn't actually get all the facts straight but does highlight other areas where she succeeded quite well:

www.stylist.co.uk/people/was-thatcher-a-feminist-2

'Juggling career and parenthood with an immense amount of ambition paid off, and Thatcher won the London seat of Finchley in 1959. She was promoted to the front bench as Minister of Pensions two years later. During this time Thatcher supported some diverse causes, she was one of the few Conservative MPs to vote both for a bill to decriminalise male homosexuality and one to legalise abortion.'

'Her political agenda divided the nation, privatising nationally owned enterprises, allowing council tenants to buy their homes and putting legal restrictions on trade unions. But for Berlinski, this benefited women far more than any genderspecific agenda could have. “In creatingeconomic opportunity for so many people who had never had any before, I am sure she did more for women than any of her political rivals who were specifically targeting programmes supposed to help women. What helps women most is economic opportunity.”'

'Berlinski stresses that you have to take into account the state of the economy at the time, “This was an economy crippled by labour unrest, growth was below any other comparable European power and the standard of living was worse than Italy’s. This was an economy that was in relative decline. After she left office, the UK was one of the most powerful countries in Europe.”'

I have no particular feelings one way or the other towards her but I do think she has been unfairly maligned (some she deserved, others she didn't).

Some people believe she succeeded in spite of being a woman Marmark1 - it hasn't been repeated since has it and I doubt that that is because there are no suitably qualified/capable women. Do any of us really know what her feelings were about feminism? Can you state, with absolute certainty that she wasn't given that her actions did, indeed, support the advancement of women? As i have said, there are several forms of feminism and not all of them are about shouting the loudest - the most effective ones tend to be those who work quietly in the background making changes slowly but surely and those people (men included) tend not to noticed or highlighted by the media - thank goodness!

There was a very interesting item on the news this morning about 'elitist Britain' that could well explain this - if I have time later, and to appease those who become irritated by unsubstantiated quotes (even though I have never made a post that couldn't be substantiated - so little trust on here), I will look up the report and supply the relevant links.

She succeeded.fact.She was a woman,fact.Maybe if a PERSON is determined to think in one direction,that PERSON will miss things.Maybe contentment and happiness will not touch that PERSON,because that PERSON is too busy looking the other way.

I don't know how this discussion has morphed into a tribute to Margaret Thatcher. She didn't see herself as a feminist and I certainly didn't see her as one either.

What we were talking about was a position in the church that women were not formerly allowed to hold - not about the general difficulties of women reaching certain positions but about women being totally excluded from particular positions.

Whatever people think Of Maggie, she was the FIRST British PM.

She deserves Great respect!

<Applaud>

FIRST -WOMAN British PM.

Good for Maggie. She boldly went where no woman had gone before. She believed that a woman can do or be anything she wants to be - a definition of a feminist, whatever she was labelled as.

Sometimes for a woman doing or being what you want involves changing something drastically so that your path to fulfilment is not blocked by a anti-female law promulgated by those who believe that a woman's place is in the kitchen, nursery, drawingroom or bedroom, but not in the higher ranks of church, law, medecine, government. Who allowed a husband to own all of his wife's money, and do with it what he wished, and if the marriage failed, to keep custody of her children so that she never saw them again. Who grudgingly allowed women to attend University lectures, but behind screens so that the real students were not distracted, and without being awarded degrees, and who barred female medical students from anatomy lectures.

To do that a certain amount of chutzpah is necessary, and a lot of single-minded determination not to be side-tracked into a different destiny which does not transgress conventions.

It also helps to be born into a country/religion/society where the spadework has already been done by the pioneers. Those who have made it possible for women to be consecrated as bishops are among those pioneers.

As men cannot carry and bear babies, there will always be a tendency to slip back into a society where women generally have lesser or temporary work, with corresponding lower pay and self-esteem. women are more free than they have been for centuries - not complacency and "I made it OK so there is no problem" but "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance"
(a simplified variant of a line from a 1790 speech by Irish orator John Philpot Curran: "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt".)

Maggie showed us that a woman can be just as uncaring and callous as a man.

Eloethan Thu 28-Aug-14 09:47:38

Margaret Thatcher came into it when Marmark said she wasn't a feminist - and that, of course, depends upon the definition being used. MT didn't toe the female line very much in any way at all from what I saw (other than being a wife and mother). The posts were not intended as a tribute to Margaret Thatcher but comments had been made that were incorrect.

It is pertinent to the thread as already quoted: 'In 1988, [Margaret Thatcher] angering traditionalists in the Anglican Church, she spoke out in favor of women’s ordination to the priesthood.' - if that isn't championing women's rights I don't know what is!

Maggie Thatcher was a very strange combination of an overbearing but feminine figure conducting herself in a very aggressive and masculine manner. I must confess that I admired her intellect, determination and personal courage, but loathed just about everything else about her and what she stood for, and the damage she did to the country. So perhaps it would have been better if she had joined the church - she might have made a quite extraordinary Bishop or even Archbishop, but heaven help any priest or prelate who crossed her! One aspect of her character which really puzzled me was her apparent ready abandonment of her Midland roots and accent. I never understood why she did that. Perhaps her ambition to succeed in the rarefied atmosphere of the Tory party required it.

Is this group primary made up of Feminists then.No offence,but if that's the case I better sigh out.

It is mostly made up of people who think that women can do or be whatever they want to, Marmark1, so you should feel completely at home.

I think there's a lot of strong minded, confident , bright , intelligent , knowledgable and witty women ( and a few men) so if you think you don't fit in.......

Femininists also, MARK think that might
have been forgotten!

Just reread my post. It should have said "people who think that women are capable of doing or being whatever they want" What I posted above was not accurate.

I can't think why you should want to sign out (you wrote sigh out?? Is it that sad?) because you have a different opinion/definition on one subject to some others. There are posters here with all kinds of opinions. We manage to exchange views without bloodshed and without anyone feeling they must leave.

As the grandmother of two girls & two boys I want all four of them to be able to develop their skills, aptitudes and interests without being limited by other people's set opinions on what girls/boys should be like or do. Their gender should not limit their career paths, social interests and activities. Kids are kids and we should not be moulding them into traditional /stereotypical gender specific behaviours and attitudes.

Campaigning and speaking out against such limitations is part of the 'feminist' cause.

I agree that gender should not limit careers, interests and activities but we must make sure that society doesn't look down on full time wives/husbands and mothers/fathers. Whilst some feel they need to work to find fulfillment others are happiest at home with their children.

I loved being a full time mum and I'm glad I had to opportunity to do it. I had my children at a time when it was still acceptable to give up work and nurture your children. Now poor women are expected to go back to work and give their children into the care of strangers. I know some people have to work to keep the family going but it's sad that being a full time parent is looked down upon.

As a church goer and chorister in our local Diocese, I'm in favour of Lady Bishops. Actually, the Gender of a preacher shouldn't matter.

HildaW Said:.>>

"Please lets try to see the person, not the gender....judge by what someone does and says, not by which way they button their shirt."

I agree with that statement whole heartedly.

Nonu - I was describing characteristics of feminists