Woman

If you can post me any evidence of one trans person in a government post, a high level civil service post, a post in the judiciary, or in any other institution which actually possesses or exercises power in the UK I am willing to reconsider Rosie51. But I know you can't.
Most of the language you have posted refers to the requests transmen have made so they are included. It is interesting that some who allege transwomen are not women presumably think transmen are women, but evidently not women worthy of consideration.
Women's organisations have been highlighting and opposing violence for years they just don't accept transpeople are responsible for it all. It's men.
I have stated so many times that the law is clear on single sex spaces but it isn't applied, as it's men with power who really ensures it isn't?
There have been lobbying organisations with much more influence and a bigger membership than any trans ones. Why have they managed to change things (if they actually have)
I do resent the way some posters accuse me and any trans supporter of acting against women's interests. My concerns, my support for and my involvemnt in women's issues is long standing and strong. The fact that I see much worse and more dangerous long term outcomes for women, through supporting policies which discriminate and restrict individual freedoms, shows I care much more, and work for much wider and more radical aims, than most of you on GN.

Forgot to say excellent post grannygranby

the trans movement isn't in charge Oh come on trisher what's been the driving force behind "people with a cervix" "vagina owners" "pregnant people" "chestfeeding" "menstruators", rape victims being compelled to refer to their rapist as she etc if not the trans movement. It really isn't the meek powerless movement you try to portray. The same movement could easily be challenging the areas that grannygranby mentions. Same observation and question to you as I put to GagaJo. It's a great pity that you cannot spare one iota of understanding or kindness for those women who for reasons, be it cultural, religious or other, have their lives restricted by transwomen who refuse to respect single sex spaces. Do you hate these women who just want to live their lives?

It is also interesting how bastions of male privilege like Eton and the Garrick club the Catholic Church priesthood and primogeniture are not open to trans men yet they are not called transphobic and threatened and cancelled. Why do you think that is?
I'd call them transphobic, mysoginistic, patriachal institutions which show the patriachy still dominates. As to why they aren't labelled publicly well it's obvious the trans movement isn't in charge, the patriachy is. They protect their own. How can it posibly benefit transpeople for them to be unchallenged. Only men benefit.
Just as men benefit from the law not being properly applied. From transpeople being held in disrepute, from schisms in feminism and in fact from every instance identified on this thread. The issue is not with trans people but with men. Transwomen and transmen are simply tryig to live a life they find bearable. So stop blaming them for every violent incident, and accept that they have been amongst us for years living their lives and will continue to do.

Good post grannygranby.

The confusion is always that ‘woman’ is a sex class not a gender identity. It always used to be with us women who have always fought against gender stereotypes that ‘feminine’ and masculine were gender characteristics. Not women and men.
Queer theory (a la Judith butler) would have it that not only gender but biological sex itself is a social construct, which is nonsense. We are not assigned at birth by another human, note the language, not noted or observed by assigned a weasel word that implies you can be reassigned and it would be equally true. There is so much bad information out there doing such harm. Making people believe they can change sex. Gender is performative but it does not give one the right to go into sex protected spaces. 97% of sex crimes against women are committed by men. Most men are kind but because of the risk all men are kept away from very vulnerable women in hospitals hostels and prison. It is only humane. No male has that right however he identifies.
It is also interesting how bastions of male privilege like Eton and the Garrick club the Catholic Church priesthood and primogeniture are not open to trans men yet they are not called transphobic and threatened and cancelled. Why do you think that is?

Rosie51 I thought we were comparing violence against women and transwomen.
Of course the eoverall figures which include all people are higher. The largest group of people subjected to violence and killed is men in the 16-25 age group. The idea that women are more at risk than men is completely false.

From the ONS report 2020

The homicide rate was 11.7 per million population, with the rate for males (17 per million population) almost three times that for females (6 per million population); this is a higher difference than previous years because of a 20% increase in the number of male victims, from 422 to 506, and a 16% decrease in the number of female victims, from 225 to 188.

For transgender people there is also of course the fact that in death they may be mis-gendered anyway.

Thanks Mollygo . GagaJo I don't believe you have ever accused me of being a MOD before. I didn't tell you to do anything I asked, maybe you need to up your comprehension? I don't hate transwomen at all, why would I? I have only personally known one. I do object to male bodied transwomen ousting natal women in sport, taking women only shortlist places and compromising female only spaces. It's a great pity that you cannot spare one iota of understanding or kindness for those women who for reasons, be it cultural, religious or other, have their lives restricted by transwomen who refuse to respect single sex spaces. Do you hate these women?

Double standards agogo as usual.

Wanting curbs on the rights of untransitioned transwomen to enter female spaces does not equate to hatred of transwomen. Nor should it leave someone open to being on the receiving end of deliberately offensive behaviour as a supposed quid pro quo.

Great idea GJ. You’re right, no one can tell you what to say and if you know you’re offending someone, you could get extra enjoyment from using the term.
On the other hand could you give a quantifiable example of Rosie51’s level of hatred against transwomen? I seem to have missed that figure.

Some very angry individuals on here. This is theoretical argument. Chill out.

Rosie51, given your level of hate towards trans women that you've never met, never will meet, and who bear NO threat to you, I think my using a term you disapprove of is minor in comparison.

As I have said to you before, are you a MOD on the board? If not, don't tell others what they can/can't do, unless of course it's a personal attack, in which case by all means report me.

From your own link trisher
A back-of-envelope calculation based on this data would suggest that the average trans person has a one-in-200,000 to one-in-500,000 chance of being murdered in the UK over the course of a year.

How does that compare to the wider population?

Figures from the ONS for 2008 to 2017 show that the average adult in England and Wales has a one-in-100,000 chance of being murdered in a given year.

As for hate crimes, that is subjective, if the victim or any other party "perceives" a hate crime it is recorded as such. Even the notorious non-crime hate crimes. Notable that there is no such category for hate crimes against natal women unless the hate is because they are of colour or disabled. Sexual orientation should also count but I'm guessing that won't apply to heterosexual women. So you can be as hateful as you like to women, nobody is interested including it would seem, a proportion of other women.
And GagaJo please can we stop with the highly offensive term cis, it's totally unnecessary and considered offensive to many.

Wow! I nearly missed your next diversion-why are women choosing to target transwomen and not transmen?
Because we are concerned about the erosion of natal women’s rights in
safety,
employment,
sport
and the right to be known as women. These rights are being attacked by men, and sadly as I see on here, by women. (Unless there’s something you’re not sharing.)
I can’t believe you’ve read this thread and not realised that.
However, I would equally support men’s rights:
not to be put in danger by transmen;
not to have their rights to a job damaged by transmen
not have their opportunities for success in sport damaged by transmen, where the transmen would win by virtue of being born as women.
I would also support transmen’s rights
not to be expected to accept terms like vagina men, instead of being called transmen and natal men’s right to be called men and not penis havers.

What is certain is that statistically because there are fewer transwomen than natal women the percentage of TWs subjected to violence is much higher.

So is this what underpins all your assertions that transwomen are at greater risk than women? It doesn't actually prove much, does it? In fact it doesn't even point vaguely in the direction of a possible trend.

This is one of the best explanations ofwhy transgender people need to be included in feminism I have ever read
globalnews.ca/news/6261226/gender-based-violence/

Sorry Gagajo crossed posts!
I agree why are women choosing to target transwomen and not men?

Rosie51 your remarks show yet again how little research people do before drawing conclusions. In fact it isn't known how many transwomen have been murdered because there are no records kept as such. It depends on the police force. What is certain is that statistically
because there are fewer transwomen than natal women the percentage of TWs subjected to violence is much higher. There are of course a lot more women but just looking at the numbers doesn't present accurate data.
And are transwomen reponsible for collating the files or is it once again those in power?
For accurate information
www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

Where is your evidence for that Rosie51? This link shows that the deaths of trans individuals isn't tracked in the UK.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

And as THIS link tells you, trans people that are killed will probably be misgendered.

www.bps.org.uk/blogs/diversity-and-inclusion-taskforce/transgender-day-remembrance

So you're making an assumption based on evidence that isn't available.

Perhaps you should redirect your ire at cis, heterosexual men. Because they are the ones killing cis women.

They are subject to more violence than women, and the evidence? trisher There have been no transwomen murdered in the UK for at least the last year, probably more. How many natal women have been murdered in that time? Obviously none according to your declaration.
Isn't it strange that crimes against transwomen count them as transwomen, a persecuted minority but crimes (especially sexual ones) committed by transwomen are just absorbed into the women's count. No separation wanted there.

Posted early, but I have to start work now anyway, so that’ll give you a chance to respond trisher.

Frighteningly, I’m becoming more worried by the women who endorse the actions of the patriarchy by sidetracking any discussion of natal women’s concerns.
Read all the posts on here where people have said that their concern isn’t transwomen per se, but concern about where trans rights taking precedence over the rights of natal women even where that endangers the lives of natal women or children.
Saying transwomen stand by natal women does not eliminate the harm that some transwomen are doing. If they, as transwomen, really support women, they would support women’s rights to safe places, where men and even transwomen who behave like men are excluded.
They would support women’s right to compete against natal women.
“It isn’t transpeople who make laws”
I don’t actually know whether there are any trans people involved in the law-making. I don’t know either whether there are any transwomen who are standing up for the rights of natal women against the harmful group of transwomen. I anticipate your list of examples.

Mollygo if you don't understand that traanswomen are not part of the patriachy that they have in fact stood beside women for years and worked with women for years, but have done so by hiding and obscuring their true selves then you understand little. The fact that they are now standing up and saying we are who we are is an opportunity to embrace and accept them and their true selves.
The patriachy is powerful white men who have little regard for others, who divide society into sections to ensure that they have power over them, then set them at each others throats and let them squabble over inconsequentials whilst they maintain power. So you may well feel transpeople are the patriachy but there is no evidence of any connection. They are in fact one of the last of the minorities. They are subject to more violence than women, they suffer more criticism and condemnation than women (read this thread) and they are just as put upon by the patriachy as women. So by all means imagine that they are in some way a threat to women's rights but it isn't trans people who make and implement the laws. Meantime the patriachy secure that they have once again set women against other women and the trans community, set black people against white people, Christians against Muslims and rich against poor, will sit in power.

By the way the two quotes were from you I have no idea if transwomen have had surgery and I wouldn't dream of asking. It's really odd how people post things and then won't own them

Just read Mollygo’s post, very well explained and articulate post ??

Another endorsement of Mollygo's post.