No wonder our prisons are full

Have a look at the other post re early release? Discussions there to around no room in our prisons.

Completely agree with you

Yes, your post would be relevant on the Early Release thread, gransruleok.

I agree with you.
Imprisonment for Public Protection (IPP) sentences were scrapped in 2012 but did not apply retrospectively.

Same with the House of Lords. They also should have to retire at 75 max, not when they die often aged 85 + !

Sound like Victorian times, except for the phone. They used to incarcerate people for trivial things back then. Why don't the powers that be do something about it?

I saw that news item too this morning. His son and sister were talking to the BBC. He has been in prison for over 14 years for the theft if a phone.
He has been moved from one prison to another while they try to sort his case out and now suffers from.mental health problems.
How many more like him are taking up places in prisons for a very minor crime which shouldn't have resulted in a prison sentence?

Yes, the IPP sentences are appalling. They need a proper review for everyone.

I heard an item on R4 the other day about how many prisoners on parole get called back because they’ve broken their conditions. One poor chap was back behind bars because he didn’t receive notification of a parole appointment he has to attend because he was both homeless and didn’t posses a phone so the letter never reach him.

The systems seem so inflexible and no one can - or dare not - break with convention and use their judgment on the severity and cause of breaches.

I saw his sister on TV today. She is a Vicar.

How absolutely ridiculous, not the fact that his sister is a vicar, the sentence.
Totally unjust, the poor man.

I know one man, late twenties when he led armed robberies, including a MacDonalds where children were present and staff as ever very young. He had been offending since age eight. Was a violent, scary drug user/dealer who had not responded positively to any of many attempts to get him on a better path. He was given a public protection sentence, ie with no release date.

I visited him months into sentence. He looked very well, presented as stable and able to effectively discuss difficult issues calmly and reflectively. As with so many like him, he brought certificates to confirm he was attending education and group work.
This was the first occasion I’d been in his company when he wasn’t behaving in a threatening explosive manner. I don’t know if he is still in prison. These sentences were always oppressive though welcomed by many members of the public.

I heard the sister of the mobile phone thief interviewed, he was a persistent offender with a drink problem. He’d lost touch with his family. His story is not uncommon. Many prisoners have mental health and substance misuse problems that see them isolated from family support. Many offenders were abused/neglected, dropped out of school or permanently excluded. Large numbers are illiterate, many it’s suspected neuro diverse- adhd, dyslexia etc,

Unsurprisingly many early release prisoners are back in hmp. Probation or other services unable to support them..

It needs money and long term commitment to prevention

Perhaps the problem is that some offenders should have received more support for their MH problems in prison and then released on licence with support?

The sentence in some cases seems out of proportion with the offence but they obviously needed expert help.

It seems rather like the cases of those women who were incarcerated in MH institutions for years because they had a baby out of wedlock.

The support for ex-prisoners just isn’t there nowadays, when they are on parole or newly released. I guess if you’re just cast out on the streets with nowhere to go, you’ll look for what you know, which may well be the company of those who led you into trouble in the first place.

They should pay that poor man millions in compensation and make sure he has a comfortable and happy old age.

Unsurprisingly many early release prisoners are back in hmp. Probation or other services unable to support them.

It needs money and long term commitment

THIS is the issue but there is also a lot of resentment from much of the public. Many are hostile to the spending of sufficient money on offenders. "Why should these (horrible) people have help" is a common attitude.

I don’t support indefinite public protection sentences. I recall support at the time when the government said they would be used for eg psychopaths, men who posed continued threat to the public. At that time our prisons And probation were under less pressure than now.
It seems the man at the centre of news coverage now had a long history of offending and a drink problem, isolated from his family. He was clearly vulnerable and developed significant mental health problems. He wore his bed sheet as a gown and believed he was Jesus. Prison has a huge population of men (and especially women) with mh problems. I don’t know enough about indefinite sentences, will check but I’d always assumed parole would be considered, especially for “petty” offences. Probation would usually recommend alternatives in similar cases. Also, offenders would have a Through Care probation officer. Mental health support much less available than needed. I wonder if this man was assessed and treated ? He sounds to have become psychotic

It needs money and long term commitment to prevention

Exactly. But how can this be achieved? It needs support for young families (along the lines of Sure Start), a new approach to education, support to parents to get children into school, good mental health services (especially for children and young adults), clear job opportunities, music and other life-enhancing activities activities in school that encourage cooperation, properly staffed and trained probation services ....... the list is endless.

When governments try to introduce such things the right wing see it as mollycoddling without realising that such support is a long term investment for the benefit of us all.

It seems that this man has schizophrenia with marked paranoid features - so this is why he is not out in society as he has been assessed as a danger to the public, not because he stole a phone.

He would no doubt have been out a long time ago if he had not become a danger to the public.

Whether his incarceration in a prison is appropriate is very much open to question, but he is clearly deemed unsafe to be at large and there would be an outcry if he were let out to be a danger to everyone.

Hopefully Burnham's review of this type of sentence might see him accommodated and treated somewhere more appropriate for him.

Thanks Luckygirl, I found it difficult to believe this man was given the indeterminate sentence because he stole a mobile.
The sentences were aimed at dangerous repeat offenders who posed a continued risk to others

What a mess our CJS is in, it took years of underfunding. Neglect, refusal to act in response to research for things to get so bad. There are no quick fixes but, that doesn’t mean Burnham’s government shouldn’t have short, medium, long term plans

Once you put someone in prison they're likely to be a financial cost to the taxpayer for the rest of their lives. Employers won't take them as long as they have an applicant who has not been in prison. So there is that to consider when convicting.

I later heard another view of the young man who stole the phone. The contributor on the radio said he had been part of an armed robbery gang. He said that armed robbery carries a possible life sentence. The man is now out and pursuing compensation.

I watched the interview yesterday and thought it strange that the vicar mentioned that at trial the judge had said something about being a danger to the public and should not be released, seems now maybe the judge had good reason.
I'm not in favour of these sentences although admit to knowing little about them but I do wonder how those who have been unfairly treated under this rule could ever not end up with some sort of mental illness as a result. It seems little if any help given in prisons but such help outside also seems to be a real problem with people waiting years for treatment.

Didn’t see this in tv but 35 years experience in Criminal Justice system. Don’t necessarily support IPP sentences but truly this ‘phone theft’ would most likely have been a Robbery offence. And not the first serious offence he committed

In 12 years he would most likely have had Parole hearings and his risk of serious harm would have been taken into account by the Parole Board. Plus his behaviour in Prison would form part of any risk assessment

Re MH treatment, it is generally inadequate in Prisons but there’s often too a refusal by people to engage with MH Services and Drug or Alcohol agencies

It is hard and the initial intention of the IPP sentences was undermined. But absolutely no one got an IPP for literally Theft of phone, I don’t believe

SueDonim

Yes, the IPP sentences are appalling. They need a proper review for everyone.

I heard an item on R4 the other day about how many prisoners on parole get called back because they’ve broken their conditions. One poor chap was back behind bars because he didn’t receive notification of a parole appointment he has to attend because he was both homeless and didn’t posses a phone so the letter never reach him.

The systems seem so inflexible and no one can - or dare not - break with convention and use their judgment on the severity and cause of breaches.

Heaven preserve us all from a system where justice is dispensed by judges using their own discretion instead of taking heed of what the law actually states!

Anyone released on parole can be recalled if they break the conditions of their parole.

A homeless person can and should have his or her post delivered to an accomodation address. You used to be able to use your bank, or have letters sent post restante to your local post office.

Obviously, this will no longer work, as it is hard to find either a bank or a post office, but surely you can still direct that your post be sent to any address you like, as long as it is marked c/o plus the owner of the property's name, and you have taken the trouble to get the propety owner's permission to have your post delivered there?

I agree that spending twelve years in prison for stealing a phone is ridiculous, but I cannot agree that anyone convicted of theft should be let off. In this intance a fine would have been sufficient, I would think.

Regarding judges age: yes, both they and members of parliament should retire at the same age as the rest of the population - which is actually being raised all the time.

I agree that spending twelve years in prison for stealing a phone is ridiculous, but I cannot agree that anyone convicted of theft should be let off. In this instance a fine would have been sufficient, I would think.

Please see posts above - this man remains in prison because his paranoid schizophrenia makes him a danger to the public, not because he stole a phone.

His case does need reviewing but with a view to him receiving treatment in a more appropriate place, not in order for him to be released when still considered to be a danger.

What has his prison record been like whilst incarcerated?
Rehabilitation not possible in his case?
I don't buy that for one minute, considering the sentences meted out to cold blooded killers.