Healthiness

I'm not sure that the research has been done that definitively proves that hypothesis one way or the other. If people feel healthier if they take up any particular dietary regime and they enjoy it that must be a positive thing for mind and body.

l looked into this some time ago. It seems that in countries where there's a mainly plant based diet there's less incidence of bowel cancer etc. Because the food passes more quickly through the digestive system than meat based.
Also with a plant based diet there's less of a risk for obesity and all diseases related to that. Probably for the same reason?

That's interesting, fennel, because my understanding was that meat is easier to digest than much plant material. This is rather borne out by the fact that herbivores like cattle have several stomachs and have to spend a long time digesting the same material more than once. Animals that eat meat only need one stomach because the digestive process is simpler in that meat doesn't need to ferment, or whatever it is herbivores' extra stomachs do.

What you said about the speed of the stuff passing through the gut might be true. I don't know. Maybe the several stomach business helps with that. Talking of which, I wonder if the overall time from mouth to anus is very different between herbivores and omnivores.

Oh, you said digestive system, not gut. Sorry.

I don't believe meat as such causes obesity.

Diet isn’t the only factor in health.
In older people, the single most important indicator of good health has been found to be social interaction.
Protein intake is important too in older people, to maintain muscle mass. This is important for falls prevention. I’m not sure how easy it is for vegans to ensure adequate protein intake. You have to eat an awful lot of nuts to get the same amount of protein as you do from a small piece of chicken.
Preventing falls is important for older people, to allow them to maintain independence & social contacts for longer.

I do think food is generational to a certain extent. I was brought up as an omnivore, as were most people in the 50s and 60s.

It does seem like there will be a need for the population to greatly reduce meat eating if the human race is to survive.

The propaganda has begun forcefully in the media and perhaps in 50 years time everyone will be vegan or vegetarian out of necessity and health. They will look back on us as being very strange eating animals.

PS glad Baggs said healthiness not wellness.

Yet around here there are many farmers , a good age and very active , they certaintly eat much meat

Meat is being grown in labs now, lully, not yet enough to feed everyone who wants to eat meat, but we'll get there. It is such good food that it would be silly to abandon it.

That's interesting too, janea.

Remember we are talking averages here. Those who choose a vegetarian or vegan diet are a self selected group of people for whom health and taking care of themselves, as well as having strong ethical beliefs is important.

This cannot be said of the wider meat eating population, many of whom, will have a poor diet, and include overweight people and those that drink and smoke. All factors, more likely to be found in omnivores than vegans.

To find out if vegans were more healthy, you would have to match them against a sample of meat eaters who
will have a matching age range (more young people are vegan than older people) equally proportions of those that are overweight, heavy drinkers and smokers, levels of fitness, presence of other medical conditions etc etc.

I haven't seen this survey, so know nothing about the sample and who did it, but I would need much much more information before I would believe it.

Here's some research on incidence of bowel cancer - scroll down to 'Diet':
www.hindawi.com/journals/jce/2011/675154/

But even this article does not draw a direct link between eating meat and not eating meat. It talks about how the meat is cooked, links meat eating with other unrelated changes in life style that come with affluence, obesity and a less active life style. It also refers to The rarity of adenomatous polyposis syndromes in the native West African contributes to the reduced incidence of colorectal cancer whatever that may be.

The whole article is shot through with provisos: methods of cooking, levels of carbohydrates in the diet. but nowhere does it suggest that eliminating all meat from the diet is the universal panacea.

Vegans will source protein in a number of ways - pulses, tofu, quinoa, nuts and seeds, grains and vegetables. As a general rule people tend to eat way too much meat. A portion is roughly a size of your fist. Processed meats which does include bacon, has been known to be bad for health for years. I ditched meat years ago and have never missed it.

Here's another one about the health of the Japanese:
www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/why-japanese-diet-so-healthy

"nowhere does it suggest that eliminating all meat from the diet is the universal panacea."
Has anyone claimed that?

monica “It also refers to The rarity of adenomatous polyposis syndromes in the native West African contributes to the reduced incidence of colorectal cancer whatever that may be.”

I would take that to mean that adenomatous polyps were a precursor to developing colo-rectal cancer and that because there is a low incidence among native West Africans, that could be a reason for the low incidence of co-rectal cancer.

Your point about averages and comparing similar groups of vegans and meat eaters is well made.

Baggs it's the indigestibility of much plant based food that speeds its passage through the gut. It's fibrous and bulky. That's great for easy elimination. Herbivores have to spend a lot of time grazing and digesting. They need to eat a lot of food to extract enough nutrients. Carnivores tend to eat much less frequently because meat is nutrient dense. Omnivores' digestive processes are set up to digest a range of foods.

Veganism is a popular (you might say fashionable) choice at the moment but some devotees can be rather evangelical about it. Most of us dislike being lectured about our choices by people who are convinced there's only one way. Not all vegans are like that. They mostly just get on with it.

We've cut down on the quantity and frequency of the meat we eat and certainly don't have it every day, but I won't be going vegetarian or vegan any time soon. We eat a lot of vegetables, fruit, beans and lentils (because we like them) and we eat bread, cereals etc. for fibre. We like meat too.

Fennel Yes, many vegans have.

My main concern continues to be that the author of the first article you recommend, is accepting that other factors could be involved and the article does not directly compare two groups of people, whose only difference is that one eats meat and one doesn't.

The second article is the same. Whatever the Japanese eating pattern, it is not comparing the health of comparable groups of vegans and omnivores. Until this is done it is not possible to support the hypothesis that those who eat meat, amount unspecified, are less healthy than vegans.

My 12 year old DGD is a vegetarian ( since last year ) her parents are not. I bought her the young people’s vegetarian cook book as recommended by another GN member and she manages very well indeed. She eats a very good and well balanced diet and is extremely fit and healthy .
However I have spoken before of a young female relative of mine (early 20’s) who is vegan. She is extremely unfit and definitely not healthy . She is in and out of hospital due to acute anemia, she does not menstruate, faints often, has poor skin, she’s overweight, tired and listless . She does not eat properly at all and we all worry about her a lot.

I’m wondering if the health, or otherwise, of those following a vegan lifestyle is actually down to that, their lifestyle. No different to non vegan people really.

I know two people who have been vegan for a number of years. Both prepare their own food which is nutritious, both walk and cycle in preference to car use for local journeys, neither drink alcohol or lack sleep. Both are brimming with energy and rarely ill.

Am I being overly simplistic to think it’s the same for us all? No matter if we opt for a carnivorous, vegetarian, vegan or any other eating style surely it’s attention to nutritional balance and our overall lifestyle that makes a difference?

I’m sorry about your young relative gilly, can understand the worry. I hope she can get and listen to some advice on improving her health.

That's interesting, fennel, because my understanding was that meat is easier to digest than much plant material

That's correct Baggs. In the countdown to a colonoscopy you have to follow a regime of a low-residue diet i.e. well cooked meat & fish, white rice, potatoes (no skins), white pasta, white bread tofu, etc. This is to ensure that the colon is completely clear.

You have to avoid fruit, pulses, wholemeal bread, high fibre cereals, etc., this is because they are slower to clear and leave a residue.

Bowel prep

Am I being overly simplistic to think it’s the same for us all? No matter if we opt for a carnivorous, vegetarian, vegan or any other eating style surely it’s attention to nutritional balance and our overall lifestyle that makes a difference?

I think you have got it spot on cornergran it shouldn’t matter whether we eat meat /dairy or don’t as long as we follow a balanced diet .

My young relative won’t listen to any advice. Her poor mum is past herself with worry . Doctors have warned her about her very unhealthy diet but it seems to go in one ear and ou the other .