I need advice for a mutually messy situation

You sound a bit like me - torn because it can be so nice and lovely but, at the same time, there's this underlying pain in the relationship.

Do you think you're still in the place where you feel that if you could just explain, he'd understand? Some people just aren't willing or able to do that. If he's able to be dismissive, he will possibly continue to do so. It's hard to want to repair something that requires two people, but they don't want to consider your side of things.

If you want to mend the relationship, is there a way you can do so safely? At the moment, I'm choosing to just be in touch with my parents with a daily text exchange. It maintains that emotional distance while still allowing communication and a relationship, even if that's different to what I'd like it to be. Is this a good way for you to dip your toes in the water?

Just remember that you are allowed to have boundaries and make choices, even if they don't like them. Relationships usually take some healthy give and take, not all being about the needs of one person.

A relationship can only be mended if both people are willing to put the work and see reality

From your post, you are all in, your father does not seem to.

I think our biggest issue is that we're both terrified of vulnerability. I built an icy fortress to protect myself from disappointment, and he built an alternate reality to protect himself from the truth. My father had a horrible childhood, and while I know a lot of his issues are the result of unresolved trauma and defense mechanisms, they still hurt all the same.

It really hurts when your own father looks right through you. But you're right lovethepuppies, if I want to mend this relationship, I'll have to be vulnerable and try. I can't keep icing him out while expecting change if I'm unwilling to take the first step. It's just easier said than done, you know? I don't know what to say to him or how to talk to him; it's always so awkward, and I never know what might upset him.

Hi there, Hithere lol. I don't know. I feel like both my father and I had a mutual part to play in how things turned out. His health has gone downhill these past few years, and I think I want to give it one last shot before closing the doors for good.

Talk to him without expectations and with your boundaries clear.

Good luck

A trained counsellor would help, a person not involved with either of you to see it all from different eyes and be the referee in the boxing ring metaphorically
If not I would certainly accept the fact that you’re both to blame ( perhaps you’re more like him than you realise)
It sounds as if you both want to mend the relationship (which is a huge start as it’s more often than not one sided) but don’t know how.
Be the bigger person open your heart and tell him that you want to try and heal your rifts but it will need some changes on both sides and ask outright ‘are you wanting this too Dad’ if you both admit to wanting it that will be a huge start, but I still think a third professionally trained party would be the best answer
Good luck

You're father is narcissistic in the sense that his ego is more important than life itself.

The only way you can have a healthy relationship with him is if he gets therapy for his childhood trauma, because as it stands now, he is actually incapable of admitting fault. It would be like expecting a fish to start flying, it's just not going to happen until he fundamentally changes as a person by resolving his trauma.

You could try mending the relationship without him putting in the work to fix his personal issues, it may workout, but I personally think you would have better chances winning the lottery.

I would spend that energy instead learning about narcissism and why he psychologically is incapable of being in the wrong. Most of the time it's a result of toxic parents who expect perfection, critique everything, and always punishing mistakes instead of teaching their kids healthy ways of coping with them (for example angrily yelling over spilled milk instead of telling them that mistakes happen and everything is alright).

That way you can have realistic expectations going forward with your father, instead of wasting even more energy on a pipe dream that will only leave you more exhausted once you realize it really won't work.

BlueBelle

A trained counsellor would help, a person not involved with either of you to see it all from different eyes and be the referee in the boxing ring metaphorically
If not I would certainly accept the fact that you’re both to blame ( perhaps you’re more like him than you realise)
It sounds as if you both want to mend the relationship (which is a huge start as it’s more often than not one sided) but don’t know how.
Be the bigger person open your heart and tell him that you want to try and heal your rifts but it will need some changes on both sides and ask outright ‘are you wanting this too Dad’ if you both admit to wanting it that will be a huge start, but I still think a third professionally trained party would be the best answer
Good luck

I would feel strange trying to tell a child to be a bigger person towards their parent(s), even if they're adults. Seems insane actually when you really think about it.

Hello sundown and welcome to GN.

Excellent advice from BlueBelle. If like you, your father wants to find a way to repair your relationship 'couples' counselling would be the best way forward.

You say that you feel you are in part responsible for how things are so if you haven't done so already, if you can, this would be a good place to start which wont be easy, but may help your father to do the same .

There's nothing insane about the advice offered by BlueBelle User. sundown has expressed what she thinks maybe her part in the failure of the relationship with her father.

Parents aren't always wholly responsible when their relationship with an AC breaks down.

It's a hard one to call.
Without knowing either of you, I'd say your father is one of those people (like one of my sisters) who doesn't do "feelings".
Sounds like he has a kind heart, but he is very buttoned up.
My sister is exactly the same, and if we expect more of her than she is willing (or able) to give, tensions arise and the atmosphere becomes strained.

It's easy to dismiss such people as cold fish, as they seem hard hearted, selfish, uncaring. In my sister's case I now believe she is on the autistic spectrum ( aren't we all, to some degree?) and finds expressing loving emotions difficult. Press her too hard and she gets testy. However, in her own way she has shown herself to be very thoughtful, caring and kind.

Perhaps, as you express feelings of guilt too, you have to accept the status quo. Leopards don't change their spots, and certainly in old age most people need a comfort zone and are uncomfortable with shifting relationships or change.

How about from now on, you throw only pleasant remarks, kind thoughts and nice deeds into your relationship with your father? Don't expect much back but you are being the better person by not expecting too much of him. Quite often in relationships one person puts more in than the other and sometimes that keeps things ticking over if you don't want constant animosity. I can quite understand that the easier path is to give up, walk away, keep your distance.

There's a decent, kind heart under his difficult exterior, by the sound of things.
I've found that if I want peace of mind and a difficult situation resolved, hanging on to that olive branch helps ME too.
It doesn't excuse bad behaviour but it helps me come to terms with family members who just don't react as I feel they should.
We don't always get what we want, do we?

As my lovely Mum used to say " It takes all sorts to make a world" It's true, and you can't always change people.

Smileless2012

Hello sundown and welcome to GN.

Excellent advice from BlueBelle. If like you, your father wants to find a way to repair your relationship 'couples' counselling would be the best way forward.

You say that you feel you are in part responsible for how things are so if you haven't done so already, if you can, this would be a good place to start which wont be easy, but may help your father to do the same .

There's nothing insane about the advice offered by BlueBelle User. sundown has expressed what she thinks maybe her part in the failure of the relationship with her father.

Parents aren't always wholly responsible when their relationship with an AC breaks down.

But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child and also had the responsibility of raising said child, so expecting the child to be the bigger person is illogical and unreasonable.

And it sounds like her father is largely responsible for the relationship breakdown as he is incapable of living in reality.

Her downfalls she feels responsible for actually sound like reasonable reactions towards someone who doesn't care about your feelings and avoids reality by deluding himself with a fake one.

It's sad that she is so deeply instilled with feelings of obligation and guilt to have a good relationship with her parents, when the father she ended up with has unresolved childhood trauma that makes him wholly unsuitable for parenting.

The fact she feels bad about not making sacrifices for her father further shows how deep these feelings of obligation and guilt go. No child should ever feel guilty for not making sacrifices for their parents, and I believe any reasonable parent would dread making their children feel like that way in the first place.

sundown this all sounds exhausting. I'd suggest that therapy would make it even more so.

As you get on well with your mum, could the three of you do some non-threatening things together? Go out for a coffee? Go to the cinema?
Spend some time together without talking particularly deeply. Get used to feeling a bit more relaxed in each others company.

Accept your differences. Just because he says something you don't like, doesn't make it true and doesn't mean you have to take any notice of it.
Best wishes xx

V3ra

sundown this all sounds exhausting. I'd suggest that therapy would make it even more so.

As you get on well with your mum, could the three of you do some non-threatening things together? Go out for a coffee? Go to the cinema?
Spend some time together without talking particularly deeply. Get used to feeling a bit more relaxed in each others company.

Accept your differences. Just because he says something you don't like, doesn't make it true and doesn't mean you have to take any notice of it.
Best wishes xx

" Just because he says something you don't like, doesn't make it true and doesn't mean you have to take any notice of it."

This is much easier said than done. This isn't some playground bully she has to deal with, it's her father.

Also, the therapy I suggested was for her father, for his unresolved childhood trauma. It probably will be exhausting, but it's worth doing if he values having a genuine and meaningful relationship with his daughter.

Gracey

It's a hard one to call.
Without knowing either of you, I'd say your father is one of those people (like one of my sisters) who doesn't do "feelings".
Sounds like he has a kind heart, but he is very buttoned up.
My sister is exactly the same, and if we expect more of her than she is willing (or able) to give, tensions arise and the atmosphere becomes strained.

It's easy to dismiss such people as cold fish, as they seem hard hearted, selfish, uncaring. In my sister's case I now believe she is on the autistic spectrum ( aren't we all, to some degree?) and finds expressing loving emotions difficult. Press her too hard and she gets testy. However, in her own way she has shown herself to be very thoughtful, caring and kind.

Perhaps, as you express feelings of guilt too, you have to accept the status quo. Leopards don't change their spots, and certainly in old age most people need a comfort zone and are uncomfortable with shifting relationships or change.

How about from now on, you throw only pleasant remarks, kind thoughts and nice deeds into your relationship with your father? Don't expect much back but you are being the better person by not expecting too much of him. Quite often in relationships one person puts more in than the other and sometimes that keeps things ticking over if you don't want constant animosity. I can quite understand that the easier path is to give up, walk away, keep your distance.

There's a decent, kind heart under his difficult exterior, by the sound of things.
I've found that if I want peace of mind and a difficult situation resolved, hanging on to that olive branch helps ME too.
It doesn't excuse bad behaviour but it helps me come to terms with family members who just don't react as I feel they should.
We don't always get what we want, do we?

As my lovely Mum used to say " It takes all sorts to make a world" It's true, and you can't always change people.

Your words really put things into perspective for me. It makes me feel a bit brighter and more hopeful. I can be just as stubborn and hot-headed as him, so it's hard to be the bigger person when you're fired up.

Thinking about it now, his dismissals are probably an indirect boundary he's setting with me. When I push into a situation that he isn't ready to face, that's when he lashes out. Thinking about it like that makes it much easier to swallow and not take it so personally.

User143981

Smileless2012

Hello sundown and welcome to GN.

Excellent advice from BlueBelle. If like you, your father wants to find a way to repair your relationship 'couples' counselling would be the best way forward.

You say that you feel you are in part responsible for how things are so if you haven't done so already, if you can, this would be a good place to start which wont be easy, but may help your father to do the same .

There's nothing insane about the advice offered by BlueBelle User. sundown has expressed what she thinks maybe her part in the failure of the relationship with her father.

Parents aren't always wholly responsible when their relationship with an AC breaks down.

But the idea that a child should be the bigger person than their parent is asinine. What about the saying that wisdom comes with age? Parents are always decades older than their child and also had the responsibility of raising said child, so expecting the child to be the bigger person is illogical and unreasonable.

And it sounds like her father is largely responsible for the relationship breakdown as he is incapable of living in reality.

Her downfalls she feels responsible for actually sound like reasonable reactions towards someone who doesn't care about your feelings and avoids reality by deluding himself with a fake one.

It's sad that she is so deeply instilled with feelings of obligation and guilt to have a good relationship with her parents, when the father she ended up with has unresolved childhood trauma that makes him wholly unsuitable for parenting.

The fact she feels bad about not making sacrifices for her father further shows how deep these feelings of obligation and guilt go. No child should ever feel guilty for not making sacrifices for their parents, and I believe any reasonable parent would dread making their children feel like that way in the first place.

I appreciate you defending me, genuinely, though I'd like to clarify a few things. My father does have his issues, but guilting has never been one of them. He never held anything over my head or made me feel like I owed him. My guilt is entirely my own.

Also, I have been selfish, and I probably should have specified my faults more in my post. Before the estrangement, my father constantly supported me financially and did favors for me that I'm ashamed to say I took for granted. Not only did I take it all for granted, but I justified taking without giving back because I never 'technically' asked for it. Still, I took it all the same with no intentions on doing anything nice for him in return.

It was wrong of me to reap all the benefits while putting zero effort into the relationship, and I was overly cold and harsh due to my own bitterness. I have only been thinking about myself and my own comfort up until recently.

V3ra

sundown this all sounds exhausting. I'd suggest that therapy would make it even more so.

As you get on well with your mum, could the three of you do some non-threatening things together? Go out for a coffee? Go to the cinema?
Spend some time together without talking particularly deeply. Get used to feeling a bit more relaxed in each others company.

Accept your differences. Just because he says something you don't like, doesn't make it true and doesn't mean you have to take any notice of it.
Best wishes xx

That's a really good idea! Going on outings with both parents would definitely ease tensions. A few people have suggested therapy, but unfortunately he isn't the therapy type at all.

User143981
I read it simply that she is acknowledging that her own stance/behaviour has a part to play?
She is not saying she is responsible.

Re the not doing enough - I saw this as explaining that her father loved her and "did a lot" for her but she didn't really reciprocate.

I didn't read guilt here... just a statement of facts. I could be wrong.
Anyway. I think you are seeing a lot of black and white here - where I see grey.

Have you maybe been hurt by "unresolved" family issues/estrangement?