Presumed Consent

I am in favour of presumed consent.
My DDs , DH & I have all discussed the issue and know that if a dreadful time came we are clear what each other want.

It is a basic moral question for me.

If I would accept an organ for aloved one to live I have to be prepared to give to others if the situation arose.

Jane10, your post echoes the conversation I had with MrGG13 last night. Whilst I appreciate the need for donor organs, this feels as though when we die the government owns our bodies.

I think I would have donated my children's organs if something had happened to them, fortunately the decision is now their married partners.

I only hope,that the medical staff deal with the bereaved as kind and tactfully as possible, and do not stop their efforts to save people's lives in desperate situations.

Call me cynical but if I had an accident and they found my donor card with my effects would they view me as spare parts. I would much prefer my relatives were approached when all else had failed.
Do they allow organs to be harvested from someone who has had cancer ?

I share your feelings Jane. Whilst my logical side tells me medical staff will do all they can to save someone involved in an accident or suffering a terminal illness, my emotional side is wondering if they think there is little chance of survival, let them go and use their organs to help someone else. It is a dilemma. The strange thing is I am not worried for myself, but I do wonder when it is a family member

Like PECS I think that if you would accept a transplant you should be willing to be a donor. 50 years ago I received a corneal transplant so I know where I stand .

I've carried a donor card for many years and registered online when that became possible.
I agree that if I'm prepared to accept an organ I have to be prepared to give back. The same goes for all my immediate family apart from Dd2 who is rather squeamish about the whole idea but respects my view.

That's fine re donor cards. That's a definite and expressed choice. It's the presumption that strikes me. As Grannygravy says after death does the government own the body?

But it is presumed consent unless you carry a card / register to say no?

I know what I am about to post will seem utterly ridiculous to most of you, but here goes.

I watched a film called The Island several years ago, the gist of which is rich people kept poorer people contained to harvest their organs in the event of them being ill/needing a transplant. I have never been able to get this film out of the corners of my mind.

I totally agree that if you are prepared to accept an organ you should be prepared to donate. I just do not have much trust, if any in our Government (whom ever that may be) to monitor that this is being administered correctly and ethically.

jane10 I agree with you.
The State doesn’t own our bodies.
There is evidence that presumed consent doesn’t increase donation rates anyway.
Organ donation: Does an opt-out system increase transplants? www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41199918
This article explains how in Wales, since opt-out began, the pool of potential donors has actually fallen.
Before opt-in, there were two categories of potential donors - those who had opted in, and those whose relatives would be asked for consent.
Now, there’s an additional category - those who opted out, and whose organs can’t be used, but whose relatives might have given consent prior to opt-out.
And in Spain, donation rates only improved when infrastructure and facilities improved.

It is an awful dilemma. I know that if I, or anyone, should ever need a donated organ, then I should be unequivocally be prepared to donate any usable organs of my own.
BUT, how do we know that all and every effort is made to save a patient, before they are deemed to be brain stem dead, and organs harvested?
We have to trust the medical staff. We trust them when we are in hospital, to be made better, don’t we?
So, although I am still not 100% sure , I think I am prepared to have my organs used, and that I will have given my consent.
I’m not sure if I have put this clearly, but hope you get the gist.

I have never been in the situation where a loved one was dying and I was asked to donate their organs, but if I were, I would be only too happy to give my consent. It would be comforting to know that a small piece of my child was helping someone else to survive.

A family locally lost their 3 yr old daughter to a brain aneurysm I believe. Parents are huge supporters of organ doation. They came to a fund raising WI garden party held at my home. It was a tough choice but a good one. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/10899012/Organ-donation-The-family-who-turned-their-grief-into-the-gift-of-life.html

Next of kin have been able to veto the assumed wishes of a donor card carrier so the system is always going to be fallible.
There are fewer donor organs available because of better car safety measures, crash helmets for motorbike riders and better trauma facilities.
That sounds harsh.
There is NO way a person is not given the best chances of survival of trauma because anybody wants to harvest their organs - a common and il informed misconception.
I have seen a young woman in ITU who had suffered a massive brain haemorrhage being cared for when there was no chance of recovery and whose parents I got to know in the relatives’ room.
The nurses spoke softly to her as they washed her face, gently brushed her hair, adjusted the life support tubes etc as tenderly as you would care for a tiny baby.
There was no question of what you fear Jane10
There is also a strict protocol that donors and recipients could not come under the same hospital to preclude any untoward pressure for organ “harvesting” (the medical term, not “reaping”)
Why do I take such an interest?
21years ago as you may know paw had perhaps 6 months to live, 6 agonising months of jaundice caused by liver failure, of non-stop hepatic itching and the destruction of his mental function. He suffered from PSC a development/spin off of Ulcerative Colitis which was destroying his liver. He was granted another 19 years of life in which to see our three daughters marry, to see and his love 4 grandchildren and to reach his 70th birthday.
The parents of the young woman whom I met in the relatives’ room respected their daughter’s choice but also told me that they found it marginally more bearable because having met me and the 3 daughters they could see the other side of the issue and hoped that their daughter’s gift would bring life to somebody else and their family.

Harrigran your current drug regime might well rule you out of organ donation.
GrannyGravy, Oldwoman and others the ethical principles involved are in my experience strictly adhered to.

I used to carry a donor card until I registered online and it was no longer necessary and then I developed an auto immune condition which apparently renders my organs useless to anyone else. They are welcome to take them if they can be of use, they work fine for me, after all once I die I have no use for them and tbh they can harvest anything and everything they can find a use for. I'm in favour of presumed consent because left to individuals not enough people come forward due to apathy. So if they are so bothered about their organs being taken they can opt out if they can be bothered.

A heart lifting and heart breaking post Maw

I'm all for it I'd be so grateful for the opportunity if I, or any of my family or friends, needed organs

It's very effective recycling and much better than polluting the air or feeding the worms.

maw no-one on this thread has said they are against organ donation per se and of course it is wonderful that Paw and other recipients are granted extra years of life through organ transplantation. No person with any humanity would deny that.

But, and it’s a big but, presumed consent crosses a line.
Clinicians are rightly taught that valid, informed consent is a keystone of ethical practice.
We teach children that their bodies are their own and no-one can touch them or do things to them without their consent.
It’s a philosophical question really - who has ownership of a person’s dead body?
For me, the answer is not ‘the State’.
That’s all.

If you would want a transplant for yourself or a loved one how can you say no to being a donor?

I have seen my best friend go thro 2 transplants and endless hospital visits and medication.Visit a renal ward that may change your mind?

Expect presigned donor harvesting forms.

Rather like our NHS was caught doing with those presigned abortion approval forms.

organ harvesting

I have changed my mind on this one.

At one time, although I am a registered donor, I believed it was a step too far to assume that there is no objection to a dead person's organs being used.

Given the desperation I have seen in people's faces when they are waiting for an organ for someone dear to them, I have changed my mind. There are not enough organs available under the present system and I feel quite sure that the majority of people would want to avail themselves of donor organs if they had someone close to them who desperately needed a transplant.

It is not compulsory for organs to be donated after death. If people feel very strongly that they don't wish this to happen, they will have the opportunity to register their wishes.

The problem at the moment is that even if you have a donor card your relatives can still refuse to allow your organs to be taken for donation to another in need. what is needed is something to override that. When you're dead you have no need of those organs, neither do your relatives! In some cultures the body must be buried intact i.e. nothing removed after death and even post mortems are refused.

Hospital staff are trained to be tactful, in fact I think there is a special team to deal with this - must be a difficult job to do.