Buggies and Wheel users users

Wheelchair users have no choice in whether they use a wheelchair or not. Mothers and babies do!

Nonu, babies can be taken out of the buggy and the buggy folded down. Or the mother can perhaps walk, pushing the buggy. Or, just for a little while, shop online.

The only wheelchair users I would object to being given priority, are the ones who are in the wheelchairs simply because they are fat.

This was a case about a bus company who refused to give a wheelchair user priority over a woman with a baby in a buggy. The wheelchair user won the case, then lost it at appeal.

I see your point, kitty, but as the woman with the buggy was already on the bus, the driver could hardly chuck her off when someone in a wheelchair wanted to get on a few stops later. Then she would have sued, no doubt...

I think that part of the problem here is that pushchairs and buggies do not seem to fold up very easily these days and so do take up quite a bit of room even when folded. Recently, on a visit to London to see my daughter, we had to take her unwell baby to the GP, which is quite a bus ride away - she does not own a car. London bus drivers will not accept more than 2 pushchairs and in fairness there isn't really room for more, but we had to let 3 buses go past as they were up to their pushchair limit, leaving us no option but to take an expensive taxi in order to keep the appointment. Rather than debating about whose rights are the most important, maybe new buses should be designed with more standing room downstairs so that both wheelchair and pushchair owners can be accommodated more easily. On the Manchester metro, there are large areas left for standing passengers, and I have never seen a problem with either wheelchair or pushchair users.

Hear, hear vegasmags!

Maybe Mums who need to travel on buses could perhaps buy a pushchair that does fold up when needs be.. I was never allowed to take a pushchair on a bus (they weren't nearly so light or foldable) when my kids were small we walked everywhere pushing the pram with a baby inside and a toddler on the seat.

I think you're right tanith I did the same as you. I used to put the whole weekly shopping on/under/around the pushchair, too! I'm sure they must still make buggies that fold up easily.

After all, a wheelchair user has no choice about folding the wheelchair up and for them there may be no other option than catching a bus.

More seats on the bus that fold up out of the way to allow more access to push/wheelchairs would seem a sensible way of helping the situation.

Good idea to have more fold up seats MiniMouse, I also used to carry all the shopping in, under and on the pram.. the only place to put a pushchair was in the gap under the stairs in those days and the conductors were GOD! If they said no room for a pushchair then off you got..

I was on a bus several years ago when a young couple with a twin buggy and one other small child were asked to leave the bus because a wheelchair user wanted to get on. They left the bus without a word, I could not believe what I was seeing! I think that was wrong, why couldn't the wheelchair user wait for the next bus they were running every 10 minutes but coward that I am I never said a word and neither did anyone else.

The spaces on buses are provided for wheelchair users as a result of their hard fought campaign for greater access to public transport for disabled people. People with children in buggies are benefitting from this, which is fine but they should not have priority over wheelchair users who have no other choice. I agree it could be difficult if someone with a buggy is already on the bus, and this requires some compromise and tolerance from both sides. However to me it's the same as an able bodied person sitting in a seat on a bus or train that has a sign indicating that it must be vacated if someone with a disability needs it. It's a chance you take if you decide to use it. I do agree that more spaces should be made available in the longer term.

More fold up seats is a great idea. And smaller, more easily foldable buggies- some of them are ridiculous . Where I live, last buses can be very early 5-6pm and lots of taxis ard not wheelchair accessible. As a pp said, there would not be space for buggies if disabled people hadn't fought for wheelchair spaces. Good on that couple who got off without a word

That is quite disgraceful CEE after all the folk didn't ask to have twins , same as the disable didn't ask to be disabled .

I repeat, it should be first come first served. I f people are inconvienced well that is life . get on with it.

I do agree that mums who need to travel on buses should use smaller folding buggies, they are readily available I have one for my GC's. We have recently moved to the Norfolk coast and there seems to be quite a few wheelchair users using public transport on a regular basis which has to be a good thing.
I still think its a bit much to ask someone to leave the bus though.
Nightowl you are right when you say that compromise and tolerance is what's needed.

I don't know if the judge has ever travelled on a bus, but on the buses I use, there is a notice stating 'This space is for wheelchairs.' It doesn't say, 'If you get on with a buggy, you have priority'. Only the bus companies can't enforce that. So it looks rather cynical.

I don"t think Wheelchairs should have prioty over buggies, I repeat it should be a first come, first served basis .

It would be interesting if this was floated on MUmnet , what their take would be.!

Well Nonu this is GN and the chances are there are more people on here aware of issues around the problems of wheelchairs and using buses. How did people with pushchairs manage on buses before they were wheekchsir accessible ? Well they had smaller foldable buggies ( anyone remember foldable tansads?) . How did wheelchair users manage? Well they had smaller foldable wheelchairs stopped at home ffs and then campaigned for change.

I don't give a flying fig for what MN's take in this issue would be

Well out of interest I went on MN and there was a mature, grown up thoughtful discussion on this issue which went far beyond 'the first come first served' debate. The general consensus was that wheelchairs come first which I found very heartening and I should never have doubted them.

I haven't looked at the discussion on MN but it is a complicated issue. If you live in a metropolitan area, there's probably a fairly frequent bus service. If you live in the country, there almost certainly isn't. To give priority to the wheelchair user means that the person with the pushchair has to get off the bus, unless s/he can fold the thing. Possibly in an area they don't know, possibly with no bus for an hour or longer. Yesterday I saw a couple with a baby and a pushchair at the bus stop. There were already two pushchairs on the bus. The man got on the bus carrying the baby and the woman waited at the bus stop with the buggy. On that route, there is a bus every five minutes so not a universal solution even if you always go out in pairs. For the wheelchair priority to have any meaning, the bus company would have to provide an empty space, as the train companies do.

The buses in South Wales have the space to accommodate up to four push chairs or wheelchairs- if there are no wheelchairs or prams on board there are folding seats which can be used in the space. There is also a cage thing for large shopping items or a foldable push chair. The bus stops are on a raised section of pavement so that the floor of the bus is level with it. Seems to all work well.

We have 2 buggies here, one massive thing for walking with, and an umbrella style folding one depending on where we are going. I am disabled and it is hard enough sometimes using public transport with a cane, different rant!!!!!
the folding one only cost 18€ and is very handy for just popping around with.

This struck me as a very similar problem to getting on a train with a bike, and finding that the bike space is full of suitcases. On one such occasion it was catch 22: I can't move the cases whilst I'm holding the bike, and I can't put the bike down while the cases are in the way. Meanwhile there's a queue of tutting passengers behind me waiting to get on the train.

Later, a woman threw a tantrum because her case had been moved: "You had no right!!"

It seems to be what happens when people prioritise having their "rights" over being reasonable. If I was that mum refusing to fold the buggy and have the child on my lap I'd have been embarrassed.

crun I agree about the similarity with trains and bikes. It was the wheelchair/disability lobby who strongly influenced the attitude of train companies towards allowing cyclists space on trains by insisting that wheelchair users have priority.

In the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark (possibly other mainland European countries too), stations and trains are designed to take into account multiple customer needs and there is plenty of space for both buggies, wheelchairs and bikes.

Last year in Berlin we saw a group of young cyclists (around 12) arrive at the station, take their bikes up the escalator and onto the platform and onto the lower deck of the double decker train. No one batted an eyelid, no scowling, muttering, complaining like you get here. But then it's easier when you are helped rather than hindered by inadequate infrastructure.

Are the folding buggies suitable for very young babies? I thought they shouldn't sit up until they are about 6 weeks old.