Buggies and Wheel users users

And granjura you should know better as well- this debate was fought and I thought won in the 80s

Nonu - using the phrase 'the disabled' explains your attitude on this thread. They are people yes funny word that people with disabilities. What century do you lve in?

It's worth bearing in mind that on the continent the trains are actually a lot bigger than ours, which I believe are limited in size by the fact that we built our railways early and the bridges and stations are too small. There are too many bridges to make it a practical proposition to make them all higher and we would also have to make many of our station platforms longer to accommodate longer trains. That is why it is easier to get lots of bikes and wheel/push chairs on trains in other countries and why it is not always a good idea to take up a new invention before other countries have ironed out the problems for you!

I agree with granjura - I've often wondered how wheelchair-bound people get around French pavements, let alone the Paris Métro!

Nonu My son is one of "The Disabled" and can seldom get a place on Dial a ride because it is full of fit people who think they have priority on it because they are over 60. I am 74 by the way.
As others have said the wheelchair/buggy spaces are only available because wheelchair users campaigned for them even to the extent of chaining themselves to buses.

goldengirl- the UK is 100000x and more better equipped for disabled people. In Paris, it would be impossible for a disabled person in a wheel-chair to travel by public transport at all. If ever I was disabled again (I was in London after a serious car accident, for over 1 year until we moved to Staffs- but it was dire then)- I would move back to the UK in a jiffy, just for the better facilities for the disabled.

I never travelled on buses when mine were babies, I either walked or took the car
. However for some a bus might be a lifeline , but nevertheless STILLthink it should be first come first served.
Can"t the disabled ring Dial a Ride, which for a modest amount has got to be more comfortable for them.

I wonder how disabled people manage on the underground - slight digression I know - because only some stations have so called stepfree access. With a buggy it is absolute hell and I can no longer manage it. As for buses I would have problems getting on a bus myself let alone holding a baby to enable me to fold up the buggy - which often has a life of its own. As for shopping as well, forget it. If the rest of Europe is on the ball why is the UK left behind - yet again!

I have been following this debate quite closely as my mum is in a wheelchair. She is unable to stand unaided. My dad doesn't drive and the bus is their only means of independent transport with the exception of an occasional (expensive) taxi in an emergency. Over the last year my mum has dealt with some awful situations using the bus. Bearing in mind my dad is no spring chicken and he is the one doing the pushing.

Bus drivers refusing to put the bus ramp down as they are in "too much of a hurry"

Bus drivers refusing to pull closer to the kerb as they are "in a hurry"

Mothers with buggies taking the space up. Mum agreeing that she was not "there first" waiting for the next bus and still not being able to get on !

I'm not sure what the solution to this is except to say that it almost is always possible to fold a buggy up and pop baby onto a knee isn't it?

I wouldn't wish being "wheelchair bound" on anyone but it could happen to any of us and those people who refuse to fold their buggy up just to be awkward (and there are plenty of them) should hope that they are not in that position in the future.

If I was in a wheelchair, much as I would want to get on the bus, I would hate a Mum and her baby to be put off the bus just for me.But if other passengers had helped, maybe both of them could have stayed.

Dont think wheelchairs should have automatic priority- but surely, a mum with a large buggy could at least TRY to move it or fold it- even if it means a bit of inconvenience and asking for others to help out. Refusing point blank to even try is out of order in my book.

Buses in those days were not baby or disabled friendly Harri . I was lucky enough to have a car but it was still hard work! In those days disabled people stayed at home, as someone else said!

It is not easy to lift a sleeping baby from a buggy, fold the buggy, gather shopping together and lift the whole lot on to the bus and I think it is unreasonable to expect it. I had a Silver Cross pushchair that was too large even when folded so I ended up walking everywhere, I lost so much weight I looked awful.

On our local buses we have four folding seats facing each other near the front of the bus these spaces fit 4 normal sized buggies not the big 4 x 4 wheel drive things some have and expect to take up all the space available,mostly around here the mums only travel a few stops !! so maybe walking would be a good idea as the shortest trip is £2.20 so much friendlier on the family budget I would think.
Personally if I had to use a wheelchair I would never expect a mum & baby to vacate space specially for me,how do I know that the parent is not taking their child to Doctors or to pick up other children from school,I would just wait for next bus or arrange a taxi but that is only my opinion.

Are the folding buggies suitable for very young babies? I thought they shouldn't sit up until they are about 6 weeks old.

crun I agree about the similarity with trains and bikes. It was the wheelchair/disability lobby who strongly influenced the attitude of train companies towards allowing cyclists space on trains by insisting that wheelchair users have priority.

In the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark (possibly other mainland European countries too), stations and trains are designed to take into account multiple customer needs and there is plenty of space for both buggies, wheelchairs and bikes.

Last year in Berlin we saw a group of young cyclists (around 12) arrive at the station, take their bikes up the escalator and onto the platform and onto the lower deck of the double decker train. No one batted an eyelid, no scowling, muttering, complaining like you get here. But then it's easier when you are helped rather than hindered by inadequate infrastructure.

This struck me as a very similar problem to getting on a train with a bike, and finding that the bike space is full of suitcases. On one such occasion it was catch 22: I can't move the cases whilst I'm holding the bike, and I can't put the bike down while the cases are in the way. Meanwhile there's a queue of tutting passengers behind me waiting to get on the train.

Later, a woman threw a tantrum because her case had been moved: "You had no right!!"

It seems to be what happens when people prioritise having their "rights" over being reasonable. If I was that mum refusing to fold the buggy and have the child on my lap I'd have been embarrassed.

We have 2 buggies here, one massive thing for walking with, and an umbrella style folding one depending on where we are going. I am disabled and it is hard enough sometimes using public transport with a cane, different rant!!!!!
the folding one only cost 18€ and is very handy for just popping around with.

The buses in South Wales have the space to accommodate up to four push chairs or wheelchairs- if there are no wheelchairs or prams on board there are folding seats which can be used in the space. There is also a cage thing for large shopping items or a foldable push chair. The bus stops are on a raised section of pavement so that the floor of the bus is level with it. Seems to all work well.

I haven't looked at the discussion on MN but it is a complicated issue. If you live in a metropolitan area, there's probably a fairly frequent bus service. If you live in the country, there almost certainly isn't. To give priority to the wheelchair user means that the person with the pushchair has to get off the bus, unless s/he can fold the thing. Possibly in an area they don't know, possibly with no bus for an hour or longer. Yesterday I saw a couple with a baby and a pushchair at the bus stop. There were already two pushchairs on the bus. The man got on the bus carrying the baby and the woman waited at the bus stop with the buggy. On that route, there is a bus every five minutes so not a universal solution even if you always go out in pairs. For the wheelchair priority to have any meaning, the bus company would have to provide an empty space, as the train companies do.

Well out of interest I went on MN and there was a mature, grown up thoughtful discussion on this issue which went far beyond 'the first come first served' debate. The general consensus was that wheelchairs come first which I found very heartening and I should never have doubted them.

I don't give a flying fig for what MN's take in this issue would be

Well Nonu this is GN and the chances are there are more people on here aware of issues around the problems of wheelchairs and using buses. How did people with pushchairs manage on buses before they were wheekchsir accessible ? Well they had smaller foldable buggies ( anyone remember foldable tansads?) . How did wheelchair users manage? Well they had smaller foldable wheelchairs stopped at home ffs and then campaigned for change.

I don"t think Wheelchairs should have prioty over buggies, I repeat it should be a first come, first served basis .

It would be interesting if this was floated on MUmnet , what their take would be.!

I don't know if the judge has ever travelled on a bus, but on the buses I use, there is a notice stating 'This space is for wheelchairs.' It doesn't say, 'If you get on with a buggy, you have priority'. Only the bus companies can't enforce that. So it looks rather cynical.

I do agree that mums who need to travel on buses should use smaller folding buggies, they are readily available I have one for my GC's. We have recently moved to the Norfolk coast and there seems to be quite a few wheelchair users using public transport on a regular basis which has to be a good thing.
I still think its a bit much to ask someone to leave the bus though.
Nightowl you are right when you say that compromise and tolerance is what's needed.