Sexual harassment by men to women

' Their mothers raised them wrong(ly).'

And their fathers?

I'm sure it is... perhaps that's the way an insecure man makes a pass, you mean? In a sexually harassing way? For power?

I think it's possible to be deeply insecure in one area of your life and very powerful in another. I would say that Clinton's behaviour towards Monica was abusive or certainly an abuse of power. I think it would be seen very differently if it happened today.

grumppa

*"Isn't a main reason the desire or need to feel powerful in some aspect of their life, especially if they have no assets to be proud of. ( Even men with high flying jobs can still feel low self esteem - especially if they have a powerful wife!)"*

That is certainly a factor, rowyn, and there is also the factor that with power comes a sense of entitlement.

It is also said that power is an aphrodisiac. Would any gransnetters agree with this, or is it another piece of self-delusion on the part of the patriarchy?

No I think there is ample evidence that powerful men sometimes do use (if not abuse) women. Monica and Bill Clinton come to mind

"Isn't a main reason the desire or need to feel powerful in some aspect of their life, especially if they have no assets to be proud of. ( Even men with high flying jobs can still feel low self esteem - especially if they have a powerful wife!)"

That is certainly a factor, rowyn, and there is also the factor that with power comes a sense of entitlement.

It is also said that power is an aphrodisiac. Would any gransnetters agree with this, or is it another piece of self-delusion on the part of the patriarchy?

Yes I did google incels.

Everyone is different though. I don't think "one size fits all".

Interestingly, someone further back in the comments commented that making a pass could be construed as sexual harassment, too. I have to say that it might be better to ask someone out if you have feelings for them rather than try to "make a pass" at work.

Katie59

It’s certainly not hate, if you want call it “animal instinct”compare it with a dog, he sniffs another dog, a male probably won’t react, a bitch will snap at him sometimes very aggressively he will back off.

Before anyone says animals don’t commit rape, oh yes they do a group of young males can get very sexually aggressive.

It is definitely hate with some men. Google Incels.

I scooted down to the last page, I admit, I have been an attractive person, in my youngers years, and never had a problem. one try on tome, I found one look from me... ..
so Lady GaGa I so agree with you... and I am NOT saying "some women ask for it" there are always the really bad ...times.. (deep sighs) but I assume we are discussing the normal/everyday occurences.. (sp)

I do agree that any form of sexual harassment should never occur, or be tolerated in the work environment. However, it’s not always men towards women. I work in a predominantly female workforce and have often seen (and to my shame) joined in with sexist ‘banter’. A good looking maintenance man, for example, was the butt of many comments. Such as - I have a hole that needs filling, my tap keeps dripping etc. I’m really ashamed that I laughed at this at the time. The poor chap seemed to take it lightly but I’m sure in reality he was mortified. It’s those with the power of seniority or numbers who can exploit others, and men may find it harder than women to report unacceptable behaviour.

Their mothers raised them wrong.
Inexcusable. These men are boors.
It should not be tolerated in the workplace. If leaders cannot identify it or act on an employee who has a legitimate complaint, the leader (male or female) is not good, fair or strong.
I know there are very respectable men in this world. Lovely people then. Forget the rest.

Having worked in a military base around a lot of men in the past. It’s not all men but some it’s a control thing and some they just think it’s their right put them together and they a pack and it’s just plain showing off. I did work for a company that I had a man was like my 2nd shadow and any reason he could to touch me my hair etc in end I went to the boss but he told boss he couldn’t stop himself he wanted to be with me even my hubby told him but I ended up leaving in the end.

I have a female friend who cannot speak to anyone without touching them and. holding their hand throughout the whole conversation. She also hugs on hello and good bye and when she feels emotional one way or another. She is the nicest person ever, but I do not welcome her constant touching and particularly not her holding hands whilst speaking with me. I have told her several times, but she does it automatically and most of our other friends welcome it and think she is exceptional lovely, which she really is. It is difficult some times. Touching of num is out of the question though, I would have to stop there. LOL. Lots of American habits are coming in to our work places. Group huggings in the mornings before commencing work and at team meetings too. I have experienced that in training sessions in one company, really weird.

I don’t agree that ‘friendly’ comes into the category of ‘personal relationship’ Delila. A man can show protection or friendship without there being a personal relationship,

I had a boss who would often tell me that he’d just had sex with me in his head.
I would just look him in the eye and say and that’s where it’s going to stay 😂

Back in the early 80s I left a job due to a boss and his advances that progressed to physical contact and I mean forced physical contact. I just didn't turn up for work following the last occasion. He phoned my house, spoke with my DH who clearly tokd him I would not be back due to his behaviour which he denied! I later found out he tried the same with soneone else. Power I think was his motivation.

GSM, I did say there are occasions when a supportive or comforting arm around the shoulder is welcome, and I think that “friendly” comes into the category of personal relationship, of course. I think it’s clear that I’m talking about uninvited, unwelcome touching. Hugs and kisses from my friends are very welcome and I too am very grateful for my men friends.

My comment is in no way intended to imply that Eejit is anything other than a gentleman.

I have never interpreted a friendly arm round the shoulders in that way Delila. Some men are, thankfully, naturally protective of women. I have always been able to distinguish between the gentleman (as I believe Eejit to be) and the lech. I’m pleased to have met far more gentlemen than leches in my lifetime.

@fancy that . Your explanation has made me realise why I occasionally have a problem with the way my Son in Law acts towards women when he has been drinking.
He and my DD have been married for over 20 years and I’ve only seen this behaviour twice but he can become very Leary and makes sexual comments and innuendos to younger women . I once had it out with him at a party and we fell out for a while .
One of your comments made me realise that it was because I was from a family who would never have that sort of attitude towards women . My parents made sure that my brothers and I were brought up equally and had respect for all . My dad would never refer to any woman in such a manner and neither would my husband .
Son in Law’s father and brother are exactly like him though so to me it is down to your upbringing.

The aren’t many occasions when it’s ok to “put your arm round” a woman you’re not in any kind of personal relationship with. It doesn’t take much imagination to see that it puts the woman in an awkward and sometimes vulnerable position, and teaches women from a young age to be wary of even “well meant” touching.
Offering genuine non-sexual comfort or support where appropriate is a different matter and can be very welcome (and men are very good at it).

EEJit

Greenlady102

I would hope, that any female I put my arm round, who found it objectionable would have said so.

possibly not

I agree with much of what has been said. However it has been a longstanding inigma to me why men think that grabbing a woman's boobs or genitalia are a turnon, especially in a public place like the office or a pub. Beyond belief,

None of this is new it was happening to me when I was 16. I was in my first job after leaving school and wasn’t used to being around men apart from my family males who were all lovely. The general manager tried to touch me up a few times you know an arm round a hug and try to kiss but I aways managed to move away until one day he caught me on the stairs and I couldn’t get away I wont go into detail suffice to say I was terrified but I managed to bring the stilleto heel of my shoe on his foot and bought it down hard he yelped and I got away. I went straight to the office manager told him what had happened and he said he wouldn’t mean anything he was just being friendly ……..I got my coat gathered my things together and walked out. My mother was shocked when I told her but didn’t believe me nobody did he was the boss. I never went back to that job but years later I met one of the girls I had worked with and she told me he was a Randy dirty pig who tried it on with all the girls and I was the first one to retaliate. I often wonder how he explained his bruised foot to his wife 😵‍💫

Greenlady102

I would hope, that any female I put my arm round, who found it objectionable would have said so.

“Making a pass” is quite different to groping or otherwise uninvited touching, and there’s no way it can be interpreted as a compliment, surely?

Davisuz I found your answer so interesting. I was thinking that almost (or even all) the men who had made passes at me have been ones I fancied anyway. And the resulting dalliance although sometimes quite short and insubstantial was quite welcome. Then I realised that I do give out quite strong signals of not wanting close contact with most people. I don't generally want to be hugged or touched by people of either sex I meet and people must pick up on that.

Paddyanne when a student I worked in a factory in a section that was run by women. The only men who entered were engineers and their apprentices who serviced and fixed the machines. Some of the expressions and language used by the women to the men shocked me. The apprentices in particular were targets. It was a complete education for me.