A World Without Downs Syndrome

No Thatbags that theory s not right either it distinctly said that Downs was now practically unheard of in Iceland so it was nothing to do with them only taking a poll of those taking the test as it appeared they have almost wiped it off the map in that country

I m only saying where does playing God stop ? Do we have the right to say this child isn't my idea of what I thought it would be this is going to be tough so we ll kill it and try again

The big question is the morality of where/when do you stop screening out children with any disabilties you as a parent would not like your children to have. Congenital deafness blindness etc. which are not essentially life limiting.

I am not totally anti termination, how about babies with an appalling disease like Epidermis Bullosa, (I don't think it is possible to screen that out yet) but it is incredibly painful for the sufferer?
Genetic modification might one day to be able to cure Cystic fibrosis and a number of diseases like that.
Does that then morph into choosing the genetic traits you as a parent want and not others?
There was that American man who claimed he could virtually "create" what he felt to be a perfect child. There are no easy answers to this.

I found the programme thought provoking. It must have been hard to abort a baby at 27 weeks! That can not be right. But she was right to defend her position and not give in to the argument else how could she live with herself?

I taught SEN for many years and did feel there was a very Pollyanna spin on Downs in the programme.. They are not all a chirpy potentially bright bunch of children. Some are a delight of course and great fun. But some are stubborn and very difficult t o handle with behaviour problems.

My theory was that a downs child was what the family made her/ him. If given lots of love and independence then that grew. If fussed over too much or even, dare I say it, made the family clown , then that grew too.

I do not think however I could abort such a foetus if I knew, but that child will.need a load of love and correct parenting to turn out as a successful adult.

Excellent post Eloethan and I agree with all of it.

Very well put Eloethan, I worked with learning disabled adults and their families for many years and your comments are spot on .

Thanks for clarifying, blueb.

But what of the child's right to life?

My neighbour where I used to live had a boy of 16 with Downs and he used to terrify his mother. He was well over 6 feet tall and built like a boxer and very strong, but would have tantrums like a 3 year old, throw chairs at her and threaten her. She was struggling to hold the marriage together and to give some reasonable attention to her 12 year old daughter. Because this was a rural farming area, there was little support for the family, except for one day a week when he would be collected by minibus (if they could get him on the coach because sometimes he punched the driver), and taken to a day centre to give the mother some respite. I believe women should have the choice as everyone's circumstances are different, and it's not all rainbows and happy endings.

Not everyone's life is rainbows and happy endings no matter if they have a child with disability or not . Aborted the children never experience rainbows or storms .

Has any Downs person ever been arrested for murdering a parent?

I may be wrong, but I thought it was mentioned that Sally had had a test that showed something like a 99% chance that she would not have a Downs baby.

I did not watch the programme, because I had read quite a bit about it and thought that perhaps the writer was writing through rose tinted glasses. However I think the OP is a little harsh. Yes, of course life is hard, harder if you have a child with a handicap and just as difficult for that child, BUT to abort because life is hard?
I think I would always wonder what the child would have been like, and how he/she would have grown. There are of course all sorts of problems with children with handicaps, and I was always sad when one of the young people I knew in our group died, and the parents would inevitably say "They are safe now" - yes it was a relief to know that no further harm could come to their child, and they themselves would not have to worry about the future, but at the same time, none of them had ever said "I wished he/she had never been born". and the child had always been much loved, which is the most important thing.

I has to be the mother's choice. She will be the primary carer.

And those who recognise the differences between people with Downs Syndrome are correct. There are those who are 'delightful' and can even hold down jobs, but there are those who will never live independently and some who are very violent.

I didn't watch the program but read an article about it. I've always thought that screening is good as it gives the parents the choice. Not everyone would cope with a child with a disability after all.

My DD is due her 12 week scan next week and won't have any other testing done ... it would involve a blood test and she hates needles! My main concern with the baby being affected by Down's is the other problems associated with it ... heart defects etc, and they are prone to some leukemias too.

The Down's itself is nothing really. I saw on a Facebook post recently that the first Down's person had passed their driving test! Times have changed for the better, they are no longer kept at home but go to main stream schools, go to work, live independently and even go on to get married.

I don't believe for a minute that everyone would choose to abort Down's babies.

Thingmajig - honestly you can't say 'the Downs itself is nothing* .... it can be very different in different people.

And the syndrome itself includes a selection from all the all the complications mentioned and more.

Sorry Anya and Elegran, I know its not nothing and of course there are many different levels of disability within the syndrome. I just think that if the only manifestation of Down's is learning difficulties it's not the end of the world as there are so many other congenital problems out there which aren't screened for and much more dire.

If the next DGC is affected I will be far more concerned by the physical aspects than the mental challenges ahead for the child. Of course, I hope it's not affected by Downs or anything else as life is hard enough these days!

The Down's itself is nothing really. I saw on a Facebook post recently that the first Down's person had passed their driving test! Times have changed for the better, they are no longer kept at home but go to main stream schools, go to work, live independently and even go on to get marriried
Do me a favour and please Google ""chromosomal abnormalities" which is what we are talking about with the Nuchal scan and subsequent tests and come back with something more informed than this trite dismissal .
The difference as I see it lies in the non-invasive nature of the tests which will be on offer. The 12 week scan and Nuchal scan are standard procedure, as is the 20 week "abnormality" scan but the big difference is that an amniocentesis carries a risk of miscarriage so for a much wanted and possibly "late" baby, mothershave to weigh up the risk of losing the foetus altogether which might have only been mildly affected or in fact not at all. The decision is still that if the mother/parents as to whether to continue with the pregnancy, ( in severe cases they may be advised that the baby is unlikely to survive to term anyway) , and counselling is available whatever their decision.
Yes, if you didn't know there are degrees to which the foetus/baby can be affected. But puh-lease spare me the "Downs is nothing"

Sadly, it's not just learning issues Thingy behaviour problems, some extremely severe, are also possible.

Back to Eloethans post on the previous page - this is one of the ideal places to live for older mentally disabled people:
www.cvt.org.uk/communities/botton-village
It was the dream of most parents I knew that their child would be able to live there one day. But places are limited.

As a mother of three now adults with Down Syndrome all adopted so genetically unconnected. They are all lovely people, kind and thoughtful. Every week they put money in a box (about 2 pounds) and at Christmas decide what charity to give it to. We can take them anywhere from a little cafe to a 5* hotel. They have travelled the world with us. The 2 girls have voluntary jobs (L helps the elderly) These lovely people have enriched our lives. Yes they have health problems (heart, lungs, epilepsy) but they enjoy life, would hurt no one.
Anniebach I have never heard of a Downs killing any one mine even carry spiders outside to stop me hoovering them up!

When I was a teenager I knew a couple who had a gorgeous little Downs grandson. He had been handed over to them by their daughter who had always worked with special needs children. Presumably she felt it was more than she could cope with at home.

When I worked in a Sainsbury's cafe we had a Downs girl who used to come in once a week and clear tables. Once she'd been shown what to do she was very efficient and she turned up on time every week, which was more than some of the staff could be bothered to do. As far as I can remember she wasn't even paid, but just did it for the experience. There were some days when we really couldn't have coped without her and I was very touched when she gave me a Christmas card which she had written herself.

What I d like to ask and no one has picked up on in is why Downs? Or is Downs just the first of the problems to be targeted There are other genetic problems that can cause a mother or family to have huge difficulties with bringing up a child

Someone pops up with one issue of a Downs young man who was difficult and violent to his mother, but that means absolutely nothing, it could be the way the young man was being brought up or he may have had other problems as well as Downs My neighbours Downs son also has Autism although he is a delight but you really cannot build a picture up on one young mans issues

Many families face huge pressures bringing up children a child with ADHD, Autism, a blind deaf child or a child with any major health problems ..... just because we can predict a health issue should that baby be killed just to make it right in case it's difficult later on Don't we all have to take the roough with the smooth I have a friend who had a perfect baby she was a headmistress a lovely lady a good family who gave their child a very good upbringing that child turned into a drug addict that has given the family the most terrible time no one could predict that

What I m trying to say is Downs might be the least of the problems a family could face why target it

Oh BlueBelle how right you are, we also have a DD 11 who has Emmanuel Syndrome and life is hard, she has severe learning disabilities only lives for the moment. She has numerous medical issues including x2 infusions /week.
As you rightly say Downs is relatively minor in comparison

Downs because it's the most common congenital condition but I believe the new test also tests for Edwards syndrome & Patau's, too, which are incompatible with life.

How lovely to read positive comments on people who are by many considered unfit to live