Benefits Britain episode 7 -I'm speechless!

Health professionals don't always get things right and new research, new ideas constantly change the advice given out, so I think we are at liberty to ignore their advice or at least question it if we feel it is not right for us after due consideration.

Few medical staff have a knowledge of nutrition, for example, and I would ignore a lot of advice on diet doled out by GP surgeries.
There is more common sense and extensive dietary knowledge here on Gransnet!

Views on medicine are constantly changing, too, and the medical profession cannot always agree or may be swayed by incentives from drug companies.

So I would not take their advice willy-nilly unless I felt a trust in them.

Are the people who are looking after you with your cancer some of these useless individuals, ethel ? They are part of the nation you denigrate, as are you.

ethelbags1 I really think it's very unfair to be so critical of social workers. They have a very difficult job and it seems that whatever goes wrong in society you can bet your life that social workers will be taking most of the flak for it. (and in case you're wondering, I am not a retired social worker).

Sadly, there are people in society who are not capable of managing entirely on their own, whether because of a learning or physical disability or physical or mental illness. You are very fortunate that your mum is not "senile" - the very many people with Alzheimers - and their families - are going through a hellish time and often with very little support. I think you are misinformed if you believe that everybody who is in dire need of help is "in care" or has adequate, or even any, support. The money and the staff are just not there to provide much more than crisis intervention.

The state is made up of people from this gang of incapable useless individuals. Some of us must be ok.

I agree with this but these people have social workers or are in care. Its the in between ones who are at risk. Those who are considered to be able to live on their own but are struggling but it is hard to find a line to draw where the nanny state is interfering or not.

Talking about mouldy food, my mother and also my friends dad both eat out of date food, cut the mould off bread and cheese etc and are fine. They both lived through the war and simply had to eat this stuff or starve. I can remember cutting mould off cheese as a girl. Both my friend and I are frustrated with these old dears but we cannot interfere.
My mother buys long life milk, dated for maybe 9 months and I cannot get it through to her that once its opened it must be used within a couple of days-to her it is ok for 9 months.!!! At the same time my mother runs 2 voluntary organisations, uses e mail, makes beautiful digital photos, is treasurer of one organisation and works for the local council. aged 80+. My friends dad goes out in his mobility scooter and both of them pay their bills regularly, run their own households and are not senile.
How did we manage during the war when most people had nothing and there were no interfering social workers ? we just had to manage.
We have become (as a nation) a load of incapable useless individuals who look to the state to provide when we have the slightest problem.

That applies fine to you, who can consider the advice and ignore it, and can make sensible decisions anyway about looking after yourself.

But not everyone has the ability to be independent. Some people just don't have the ability to look after themselves.

Some are older people slipping into Altzheimers with no family to help them, or youngsters with a mental illness that makes them neglect themselves - really neglecting, not just living on pizzas and chips - or people of very low mental ability who have not learnt the basics of independent living and have lost the parents who would have cared for them.

They really need the support of someone who can see if they are eating dangerously little and give them a nudge towards buying proper food or throwing out stuff with mould on it. Should they be left to become ill with malnutrition or food poisoning?

Fair enough

Anya I would probably take the advice and stick to it but I reserve the right to ignore any advice if I choose. also, it is not black and white, good or bad, there are many things that area a matter of opinion. Its a matter of balance, we need to have a good life as well as being healthy.

In my oncology clinic they advise us with all sorts of stuff but they tell us to have a normal life too, so if they said don't shop from a dodgy takeaway, I would not (wouldn't anyway if a shop looked dirty) but if I really wanted a takeaway I would have one and hope it was ok.

My friend has really advanced cancer and she now does everything she likes as she doesn't care anymore, she has nights out and goes on the climbing frames with her grandchild etc even though she has been told not to. I hope this explains my opinion . Im not just being awkward

Out of interest ethel if a health professional gave you good advice (I'm presuming here they wouldn't give you bad advice) why would you choose to ignore it?

where did I say someone would come to my house to check my fridge? or clean up. They would get short shrift if they did. If that's what social services do then they deserve the bad press they get, however I am not against advice. Im waiting for an op and if they nurses/workers giv eme advice then I will do my best to take it on board but it is my choice if I want to follow it.

An aquaintance of ours had many health problems most of them from diabetes.He was very overweight,as was his wife. Their pleasure at the weekend was to go out to a local pub for "the bellybusters breakfast".From the description it would have fed two of us for a week .
He had all his toes amputated through gangrene and didn't work for the last two years of his life which he spent most of in hospital.He was on dialysis and had a stroke and heart attack whilst in hospital.He died at the age of 53 and must have cost the NHS ie you and me countless thousands and in his case was a lifestyle choice.

ethelbags it's ok up to a point to say that people can live their lives as they want; drink to excess, smoke, overeat to the point of clinical obesity. But someone has to pick up the tab for their excesses. Sometimes it's from the Social Care budget, sometimes the police, most often the NHS.

These 'pleasures' they indulge in are not cost free.

Ethel nobody is going to come to your home and tell you to clean up or check your fridge, I really dont know where you get these ideas from! What I was trying to say, was that some people are unable to look after themselves due to severe learning difficulties/mental illness and to my opinion it is cruel to just shut people in a flat with no proper support in their diet or living conditions. Of course, anyone of right mind, is able to live as they wish and as long as it is not a health hazard for any children or vulnerable people living in the household, or for neighbours, then it is not anyone's business. Not wishing to argue with you, but having watched Benefits Britain last night where people were struggling to feed themselves, I dont understand where this person you are talking about is buying art and taking holidays abroad. This is either a lie on his part, or he has undeclared income and is cheating the system.

Just to back track - just come across this thread and am aware that I may reiterate what has already been said - etheltbags there is a huge difference between those people who are able to choose to live however they want, and those who, for various reasons or disabilities are NOT able to choose, yet have been placed in situations in which they cannot cope.

Having a liver transplant is not as easy as waving a magic wand. I thought people had to stay off the booze longer than six months. Why should all that work be wasted on someone who thinks they should live their life as they want ie fry ups and too much alcohol when there are people desperate for for a replacement kidney or liver who would respect the effort made for them to get well. I can't imagine it's easy peasy to replace hearts livers or kidneys for a surgeon to then find that their skill has been shown such disrespect. It's a two way agreement, an operation.

granjura, this scenario happened to the ex husband of my friend,he was a heavy drinker and lived alone and they told him he could have a liver transplant if he could stay off alcohol for 6 months. He did at first and then started drinking, his attitude was that he would do what he wanted. He was found dead at the foot of the stairs with a broken neck, he'd been drunk and fallen downstairs. So probably he would have continued drinking even with a new liver. What Im trying to say is that we all have the right to live our lives the way we want, its not so much the length of life its the quality of our lives so if we want to throw it away with drink (personally I don't much like drink) or drugs etc then it is better to have a short life, happy doing what you want rather than a long life being unhappy. I sometimes think the NHS have the attitude that says, 'we will make you live longer, like it or not'.

As humans, in general we don't like being told what to do.

how far does that go Ethel, though? If someone gets a liver transplant, is it ok if they choose to continue to drink- for instance? Be it money, or transplants- whatever goes to one recipient, in a non endless pot- does not go to another.

I saw that, Flickety. It was Nick and Margaret, wasn't it?
I wonder if there will be a follow up.

The point Im trying to make is that its not up to anyone to tell another adult how to live their lives, we can see advice in any magazine about what to eat or any newspaper, any day that we like.

Gill No Im not yet on benefits, I get sick pay from my employer, although yes I may have to apply if my treatment takes longer than I expect. What I will not expect is interfering do gooders who want to come to my house to make sure I eat what they think is 'proper' food and do housework as often as 'they' say. That would be no life for me.
I know a guy who has just been released from a mental hospital, a nice person but he gets lots of benefit, he eats what he likes, usually takeaways and he drinks beer, with all the rest of his benefit he buys expensive art works, going to auctions and he buys really good stuff, displaying it on his walls with uplighters etc.This, he says is his investment for the future. He is going on an expensive holiday abroad too. So why shouldn't he spend his money as he wishes, he probably should eat a balanced meal but its up to him.
I also know a guy just had a bypass after a heart attack, Ive seen him having fry up for his main meal but again its up to him what he eats.

Gill No Im not yet on benefits, I get sick pay from my employer, although yes I may have to apply if my treatment takes longer than I expect. What I will not expect is interfering do gooders who want to come to my house to make sure I eat what they think is 'proper' food and do housework as often as 'they' say. That would be no life for me.
I know a guy who has just been released from a mental hospital, a nice person but he gets lots of benefit, he eats what he likes, usually takeaways and he drinks beer, with all the rest of his benefit he buys expensive art works, going to auctions and he buys really good stuff, displaying it on his walls with uplighters etc.This, he says is his investment for the future. He is going on an expensive holiday abroad too. So why shouldn't he spend his money as he wishes, he probably should eat a balanced meal but its up to him.
I also know a guy just had a bypass after a heart attack, Ive seen him having fry up for his main meal but again its up to him what he eats.

A couple of years ago the BBC, I think, did a programme where they took a variety of benefit claimants and asked them to live under the rules and with the benefits they would have got in 1948 when the welfare state came in.

The results were varied and interesting, but the relevant result for this thread was that one family; parents and three children were living in a tip with three young chaotic children. The local housing officer came round and told them that to stay in their council house they had to use the garden other than as a rubbish tip and get the inside in order. Home Helps were sent in to help them sort their lives out.

At the end of the programme the couple said how much they appreciated the help they had had because they knew their life was chaotic, it was affecting family life but they felt overwhelmed by everything and just couldn't see their way out. Having people come in to help them and guide them get on the right path was invaluable and they wished that sort of help was still available.

I wasn't talking about people who are lazy or indifferent to their surroundings ethel what they do or dont do in their own home is not society's business as long as nobody else is inconvenienced. What I was talking about was so called 'Care in the Community' whereby individuals are given a flat and a community worker and left to fend for themselves. If there is no family to hand, then sadly many end up malnourished and over dependant upon tobacco or alcohol and prey to all sorts of ghastly people who see them as an easy target. Neither do I believe in the halcyon old days to which you refer, do you really think it would be an improvement if welfare was left to neighbours? I believe you are at home recovering from treatment yourself, and I assume receiving sickness benefit or some sort of help, so are you honestly saying that you don't want that, you would rather have a bowl of soup and some cast off clothes from your neighbours? Really? Hope the treatment is going.

If we go far back far enough ethelbags, we had workhouses where destitute, poverty stricken people had to go - so it seems that neighbours weren't around to help then or perhaps they were in similarly awful situations themselves. Or people had to go cap in hand to charities and parish councils and be quizzed to ensure that they didn't have a single thing worth selling. These are surely just as representative of the "good old days" as those people who were able and willing to help out their neighbours.

It is still the case that some people step in and help neighbours who are in need, but to rely solely on the altruism of others to provide for all sorts of complex needs would guarantee that many people would "fall through the net" - particularly in a society where a lot of people have been convinced that the poor have only themselves to blame.

I agree with you eloethen but they just cant tell people how to live their lives anymore. If someone wants to live in squalor then they have that right, remember they don't see it as squalor just that they maybe don't like housework or cooking . I know lots who don't who wouldn't call themselves mentally ill.
But it is the welfare state that has caused this because when people are on benefit/have social workers their neighbours drift away. As a child we always helped out less well off neighbours with food and clothes etc. I have said this many times that things were better before the interference of the state to the extent that it is now.