The White Queen

Btw, that "interesting" in my post there is a link. There have been recent happenings re bones.

The younger boy, Richard was the one who might have been smuggled to France. The older boy, Edward was definitely one of the murdered princes in the Tower and Richard was the other one - unless you believe the Perkin Warbeck story.

The Tower was a royal residence at the time and they "lodged" the older one there in readiness for his coronation. (Henry V) His younger brother joined him after a while. interesting

Perkin Warbeck pretended to be the younger one. (Was hanged)

Was Perkin Warbeck supposed to be the elder or younger boy?

Were - nor we're. Bloomin' iPad.

But we're they - would Elizabeth really have trusted to let both of them go to the tower - or did she substitute the elder and squirrel him away to France ........ ?

I've been trying to sort them all out. I think I've got Margaret Beaufort sussed, and Elizabeth Woodville. But I can't get far with Anne Neville. I know she was Warwick's daughter and she married Richard 3.

No way would it ever be a "potted" version though!

Been reading about the princes in the tower too. They were Elizabeth W's two boys, weren't they? I didn't realise that.

I love the history programmes on BBC4 that Janina does. But I'm getting very confused by all the names and events of the Wars of the Roses and the 100 Years War. What really made me think last night was when they said that Elizabeth had sanctuary in Westminster Abbey. Now, I know that was in the Sunday drama but, somehow, having it explained in a factual programme suddenly made me realise that it really happened, and I don't think I'll ever see Westminster Abbey in the same way again. And, she really did stand under a tree with her boys waiting for the king to ride past, and he did just fall in love with her. Blimey; how romantic is that!

yes she is portrayed as a bit of a fanatic isn't she, MB in the WQ.
tegan just realised that the "cousins war" or "wars of roses" was part of the 100 years war.

That explained Margaret Beaufort's position and also made her a bit more human than she is portrayed in the TV series.

The programme was very good! I'm to bed now

I've read the books and just watched the programme.
I enjoyed it and it clarified all the bits that I'd forgotten, but sorry Tegan, I couldn't attempt a potted version

Nothing about hats but as confused as I was before [and there's another episode next week]. As I'd spent the hour before on BBC4 learning about the 100 Years War [episode 1 ] my brain is scrambled. I really should have been making notes. Didn't, for some reason put two and two together and work out that Warwick the Kingmaker actually lived at Warwick Castle [duuh] either [but then again the Dukes of Devonshire live at Chatsworth don't they]. I'm going to go and water the garden and ponder a bit. Can I request a potted version from someone who's read the books [bit like jing's potted history of Eastenders only spanning several hundred years more]? Thanks in advance....

I'll have to catch it on iPlayer as it's The Apprentice final on BBC1 and DH wants to watch it.

Thanks for the reminder

Programme on BBC2 tonight about that era. Looking forward to it as may then understand what I've been half watching for the past few weeks [give or take an episode]. May mention hats . If not we'll be none the wiser and will have to go back to consulting Mr Google and/or thegospelthatiswikipedia.

Dawned on my why this does not quite work as a series for me. The White Queen was a novel that focussed on Elizabeth as the central character, leading you to sympathise/identify or whatever. The Kingmakers Daughter was another Gregory novel, with Anne Neville as the central character. In this Elizabeth is "the baddy" - very sympathetic to Anne and Richard and to some extent George as well. There was yet another novel about Margaret Tudor. In the TV series they attempt to tell all three stories so it feels like there is no point of view. Just "this is what's happening to Elizabeth while this is happening to Anne etc"
(hope i am not repeating what someone has said above?)
The latest novel is about Elizabeth's daughter, also an Elizabeth, who was married off to "the enemy" - Henry Tudor, thus making Woodville and her Edward the grandparents of Henry V111. Due out in a couple of weeks.

Perhaps Grandmama if you were being informal otherwise surely it would be Madam. If you'd been brought up in a different household you wouldn't have had much contact with her. I can't see it being very personal.

Er......Did you call your grandmother Grandma in 15th century England?

None of them look much like what we're seeing in the White Queen do they? So far it's been more Vogue than Plantagenet I seem to remember the Cadfael series being a lot grubbier looking with peasants you could believe were properly lousy.

Oh well actually, looking at this headgear definitely IN for married women but lots of fashions, so entirely possible that young and old women might be adopting different looks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1400–1500_in_European_fashion#Style_gallery_.E2.80.93_Northern_Europe_1450s.E2.80.931470s

Here is a pic of Elizabeth wearing a kind of cap and a chic little veil.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Woodville

Children of the rich whisked away to the wet nurse at birth, thus rendering mother fertile and available to husband at soonest moment. Also less likely to make a fuss when the babies died. Which they did in great numbers.
Then off to another household asap. I wonder is there a direct cultural heritage that comes down from those days to more modern times when the children of the rich packed off to prep school at 8.
I think there is a bit of headgear internal inconsistency going on in the WQ isn't there? Goes off to research the prevailing fashion...

Not a bad idea though is it, sook. Farm your kids out to wealthy families and they come back educated, perfectly mannered, capable of running an estate and probably about to marry the heir or daughter of the house. All you have to do is disappear off to court and in the meantime somebody else is looking after your own estate and all the little brats darlings in the nursery.

merlot I think they cared more for their sighthounds than for their kids