Just eat plants and save the animals

The jury is out on the connection between meat and heart disease. A number of eminent epidemiologists and cardiologists have shed doubt on the validity of the Framingham Study bjcardio.co.uk/2009/05/risk-assessment-gone-mad-the-rise-of-risk-evaluation-and-mass-public-deception/ on which the origins of this link is based.

Diabetes is caused by our excessive consumption of sugar and refined carbohydrates, not our consumption of meat. Low carbohydrate diets are often recommended for those with diabetes.

I am not arguing 'that it is far worse' I am merely comparing two different situations and I have made it clear that I am talking about high welfare systems, organic and PLA, NOT the feed lot/shed rearing on unsuitable fodder of much of the beef people eat. The higher welfare methods are not cruel to the cattle, in life or death.

Predictably, following the 'it's far worse elsewhere' argument - comes the 'traditional' excuse. Ok, we've farmed for at least ten thousand years - so what?

Other traditions, like cruel hunting for 'enjoyment', burning witches and human slavery are now unacceptable in civilised societies.

M0nica,why the (false) comparison with 'wild counterparts'. These animals only exist, and suffer, for human use. Of course, nature is cruel - but that doesn't make farming less cruel - or 'kind' - when it's unnecessary.

What about cruelty to humans, too? Obesity, diabetes and heart disease are epidemic in modern times, with diets high in saturated fats from meat and dairy.

We are not obliged to follow every cultural choice of our ancestors.

Humans have evolved and are continuing to evolve, one of the reasons for the success of the human species is the ability to adapt and exploit just about every environment on the planet. The implication that those of us who follow a plant based diet would remain swinging from trees has no basis in any evidence. We in the west now have the ability to choose to eat a healthy plant based diet, and our choices have now expanded. That can only be good for animals and the environment.

I love meat, eat rare steak and have no intention of giving it up.
I confess to eating what I enjoy, fish I cannot eat, and I have tried vegan food, and did not like it. I did try not eating meat but it did not work for me.

Hetty58 Organic and PLA animals are not treated or slaughtered in an inhumane way.

Animals (in the wild) do not live lives of complete kindness and lack of pain. They are preyed on by predators, have to find food or die of starvation when habitats fail, drought and flood have always been with us. They have no medical care when they are injured and often have long slow and painful deaths. female animals die in childbirth.

The quid pro quo for domesticated animals is that they have access to a reliable food source through out their lives, protection from predators, medical care through out their lives and in giving birth. But they have abrupt and sudden ends. I am aware that nothing is perfect, sheep do get worried by dogs, some farmers are not good husbandmen/women.

But cattle raised on pasture, or hay and reared under organic or better conditions have a far better life than their wid counterparts. What we need to do is work towards a world where the current practice in the US, with feedlots and feeding animals unsuitable food that makes them ill is stopped.

Remember that humankind only reached the level of mental development we have because we stopped living just on plants and took to eating meat - and more importantly cooking it.

It seems to me that vegans today are cruising on the backs of all the 10s of 1000s of generations before them who ate cooked meat so that we developed the minds that have domesticated and developed all kinds of different foodstuffs. If we had stuck to just eating plants, we would still be in the habitats where other primates survive, swinging from the trees and picking fleas of each other.

Witzend, yes, tomatoes appear where sewers have flooded. Ok, the 'fertiliser' is treated - but it's still gross to think about it when eating your cereal!

When everyone else was buying fly/ wasp sprays, dad was buying those sticky fly-catchers. He wouldn't have a spray of anything in the house.

In the 60's and 70's my dad was forever concerned about the pesticides that were starting to be used in farming. He said it would only be a matter of time before it showed itself with illnesses galore.

Baggs it's a 'simple fact' that vegetarians and vegans live longer. Meat should come with a health warning:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ijukNzlUg

Hetty58

aggie, do some research of your own - and you'll find that plant production is far more efficient than meat production - requiring less land, not more.

My daughter is an accountant for a local farm (cereals and potatoes). When she started, she asked what 'cake' - bought from Thames Water was - and was pretty horrified to hear the explanation!

I remember my father getting ‘sludge’ from sewage works for the garden. It had been processed and was apparently perfectly safe. Funnily enough, we often found tomato plants growing in it!

Baggs: 'so long as they have a decent life and a humane death then growing them for food is not wrong' - but they don't - so don't kid yourself that they do. How can you contribute to cruelty and still manage to enjoy eating meat?

Caleo

I hope artificially -grown muscle tissue will soon be available in Tesco.

Welp. That’s enough to make tonight a meatless meal

Some land is not suitable for growing crops but can support farm animals, without them needing to be fed soya, maize, other grains or extra food, apart from hay and silage harvested from the land they live on.

James Rebank has suggested that this type of cattle rearing, because it leads to a dense and varied plant population that is very effective at sequestrating carbon, means that cattle reared this way could be carbon neutral.

For the last two years I have been buying beef from Pasture for Life farms. It is a step further on from just buying organic, which I have done for nearly 30 years.

The more of us who can afford to buy this meat and do so, the sooner it will become the normal acceptable way to raise beef. I balance the cost by halving the average meat portion I serve. As we eat mainly casseroles and stews, we do not really notice the reduced meat content.

70% of food grown is for the animals. We just need to cut out the middle cow and just grow food for humans

Well most don’t have a humane life or death, they are killed at a few months of age and don’t get to live anything like a natural life so we aren’t doing them a favour by eating them. Raising them as “crops” when they are sentient creatures who can feel pain and terror just so people can eat them at every meal is not essential. Plus industrial farming is one of the biggest contributors to carbon emissions and climate change and has to be reduced.

vegansrock

It’s not “a simple fact” - not best for the animals or the planet that’s for sure.

It is a simple fact that meat is one of the most nutritious foods that exist.

The animals wouldn't exist if we didn't grow them as crops and so long as they have a decent life and a humane death then growing them for food is not wrong in my opinion.

I hope artificially -grown muscle tissue will soon be available in Tesco.

It’s not “a simple fact” - not best for the animals or the planet that’s for sure.

Meat is one of the best foods there is.

Which is not to denigrate other foods, just a simple fact.

do some research of your own - and you'll find that plant production is far more efficient than meat production - requiring less land, not more.

But growing meat requires different land from growing vegetable crops, e.g.when someone asked @herdyshepherd why he didn't use his land to grow carrots he replied "Carrots don't grown here". His farm is in the Lake District. The soil and climate is wrong for carrots. This applies to most crops whether they are animal or vegetable (I'm including grains as vegetable).

A little look back at geography lessons from one's school days would tell people that if they bothered to look.

here you are aggie:

www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/responsibility/thamesgrow

A dd has gone no-meat, but they still eat eggs, nearly all from their own ex battery chickens.

It’s purely because of animal welfare issues, but she’s not evangelical about it - Gdcs will eat meat at other peoples houses. Little Gds once ate 6 chicken drumsticks at a friend’s barbecue, and once said, when one of their chickens was ill, ‘If she dies, can we eat her?’ ??

Dh and I eat a lot less meat than we used to, but it’s always UK origin, higher welfare only.

aggie, do some research of your own - and you'll find that plant production is far more efficient than meat production - requiring less land, not more.

My daughter is an accountant for a local farm (cereals and potatoes). When she started, she asked what 'cake' - bought from Thames Water was - and was pretty horrified to hear the explanation!