only daughter distanced herself and tgecwholecfamily followed suit.

Exactly, Sara65, how can people hurt those they love by denying them contact with family?

Grandparents are supposed to be role models to their grandchildren. People of good moral conduct, that can instill great virtues into their grandchildren's lives AND that their grandchildren can also look up to and learn from.

So it simply doesn't make any sense for anyone to expose their child to an adult who would negatively influence their child's life, or suffer any form of abuse (emotional, mental verbal etc) from watching their grandmother feud with, and belittle their parents. It's also not in the child's best interest to be around people who dislike, disrespect or undermine their parents. Or people who are constantly at odds with their parents. Or anyone that won't listen to their parents for any reason (including being asked to leave them alone after going NC).

This is not about "grandma," and how bad or sad she feels over being denied contact with family. This is about the parents maintaining thier sanity (from going NC) so that they are able to take care of those innocent grandchildren who need them. (Outside of abuse, children NEED their parents, and their grandparents - although some may beg to differ since something's that should be obvious just aren't). Parents do what's best for their children and not what's beat for their grandparents. And maybe that's why a lot of grandparents choose to brand NC as child abuse, in an attempt to brand the parents unfit and abusive.

So when you ask how can people hurt those they love by denying them contact with family? the real question is why would anyone who loves their AC, continue to hurt them AND their family by insisting on unwanted contact, stalking and harassing them, and trespassing on the property?

This isn't about whose innocent (EAC vs estranged parents) and whose not. Again no one wakes up and decides to start their day by cutting off their great and loving parents. This mostly occurs after several unresolved issues, several attempts to fix the problem, continued retaliation from opposing party and evidence of no perceived change.

And asking questions with implications as to why we are here on this thread, and stating how we should start our own further beats the purpose. Wts the point of stating this? There's already an entire section for estrangement, and people (just like you are free to) should be free to comment anywhere without one or two parties trying to control the outcome of the conversation, by questioning other posters presence in the thread. That's another form of control and manipulation - factors that would exhaust anyone and lead to NC of it persists.

The blame is not automatically being out on the parent. The blame is automatically placed on any party that finds it too difficult to leave the departing party alone. And if it's the parent falls into these shoes, then yes it's their fault for again (since its not already obvious) no one should ever be harassed for ending any relationship. A lot of people claim the child's best interest, but I never see anyone advocating for children whose grandparents have conciouslsy opted not to be in their lives. Should AC also force these grandparents to be a part of these children's lives? For it would be in the child's best interest? Or does advocating for a child's best interest only come into play when the grandparent is hurting over being cut out? Which would then mean it's in the grandparents beast interest and not anyone else. Seems like some people want to put the children in the middle, for their own selfish agenda.
Its unresalistc to expose your child to something that you consider to be negative.

If one's own child doesn't even want anything to do with the said parent, how would it be in the grandchild's best interest to expose their beloved child to
whatever element their parents have, that their very own AC (whom they birthed and raised) doesn't even want to be associated with? Why would anyone expose their children to someone that they themselves don't want to be exposed to? And why would a grandparent want a relationship with a grandchild when they can't even reconcile with the child's parents? What message does this send to the children?

Movingon2018
10000% on your court

MovingOn

Two of my children were adults, and quite capable of making their own decisions, the oldest still has a good relationship with her, which is fine by me, the youngest was ten at the time, and now nearly thirty, visits now and again with my husband and middle child, I would never have asked them to take sides

I’m very impressed with the way you’ve handled your situation Sara65. I think most grandparents would accept something similar if it was as graciously delivered and is a lesson for us all as parents. Good job.

Move on have you considered a career as a barrister. It's amazing how much time and effort you've put into your posts.. Clap clap. I think its gone past the point of support..

Real story. It did happen. I was there.

Grandparents with a past history of boundary stomps, ignoring no's and doing what they want, are left in charge of their 18 month old granddaughter for 1 hour.

The parents of the child told the grandparents very clearly:
"It is time for dinner, so she can only eat 1 piece of fruit.
Otherwise, she will not eat dinner and will get sick, diarrhea and upset stomach."

Reply from the grandparents:
"Sure, no problem, we understand"

Parents leave and GC asks for a banana. She eats it.
She asks for more. Grandparents give her a tangerine.
She asks for more. She is given an orange.
I intervene and tell them about what her parents' warning.
Grandparents laugh and they say:
"nothing will happen, we know better, we are the grandparents, the parents are over cautious"

A total of FIVE pieces of fruit were eaten in 45 min, while the grandparents are awwwwing and ooooowing how cute the GC is, eating it all.

Dinner time comes and the GC eats nothing.
Grandparents swear she only ate one piece of fruit.

Grandchild goes to bed.
She wakes up an hour later screaming bloody murder, huge case of diarrhea, the whole 9 yards.

First change of PJs and sheets.

For an hour, the GC is crying. Both parents with her, wondering what happened.

Second change of PJs and sheets. It is now 11 pm.

After 30 more minutes of crying, the mother asks the grandparents if she ate more than one piece of fruit.
The grandparents lie again and they say they do not know what happened, poor GC.

30 more minutes of GC crying - 2 hours of crying now and another change of PJs and sheets, parents are considering going to hospital.
I then tell them that she ate 5 pieces of fruit and there is nothing else wrong.

It is now midnight.

The father of the child is fuming. The mother is too busy taking care of screaming child.
Grandparents are mad at me because I rat them out. After all, they are grandparents and they want to spoil her GC.

It is 1 AM and finally, GC is sleeping. The parents have to wake up at 6 am to go to work.

Next morning, grandparents are complaining they are so tired, they could not sleep last night as the child could not stop crying.

To this day, GP still lie to the parents about that night.
Behind the parents' backs, GP remember the GC's smile eating the fruit and how much she enjoyed it.

GN, what are your thoughts?

Quite right too Sara children aren't pawns in a game between arguing adults, and nor should they be.

Well MovingOn I've seen posts here on GN from parents who are hurt that GP's don't want to be a part of their GC's lives.

"Why would a grandparent want a relationship with a grandchild when they can't even reconcile with the child's parents?" Why wouldn't they. We'd have loved to have had a relationship with our GC.

The fact that we have not reconciled with our ES is down to him, not us. He's not interested. The love that a parent has for their child and GC can't be turned off like a tap. Even though for some AC, and our ES is an example of this, their love can be.

How can GP's be role models to their GC when they're not even allowed to see them?

We don't insist on contact, stalk our ES and his family, we don't harass them and trespass on their property, even though we have a large sum of money invested in it.

Our ES wanted space; he got it. He then decided we were no longer a part of his and our GC's lives and were to stay away, so we did.

But oh no, that was wrong, that was awful it showed that we didn't really love him and never had.

If you really want every post you make to be one that puts all of the blame and responsibility on EP's and EGP's perhaps it would be more appropriate to start another one.

The majority of posters on the estrangement threads try to achieve a degree of balance. Not assuming that all estranging AC are to blame or that all EP's and GP's are innocent victims.

Well said Smileless

I'm frankly amazed that anyone stupid enough to give an 18 month old 5 pieces of fruit in a 45 minute period ever successfully managed to raise their own children.

TBH I'm even more amazed that an 18 month old could eat an entire banana, tangerine and orange and that with a history of not doing as the parents of the child requested they were left alone with her, even for an hour.

So to be frank, I'm amazed that you think your story believable. I suppose it could be but I'm not convinced.

Smileless.

It did happen.
Whether you believe me or not, these are the events that lead to a TO or going NC.

The grandfather also said:
"With my grandchild, I am going to be the father I could not be with my daughters"
There is so much wrong in that statement that it took me a while to lock my jaw back in the proper position

As many of you have guessed. Those GP are my parents, the mother of the child is my sister and the gc is my niece.

If she had been my child, there is no way the GP were in charge of my daughter for even 1 second
Unfortunately, my sister was and still is in the FOG, rugsweeping everything my parents do.

I still regret to this day not intervening more strongly and removing the child from the kitchen. I should have protected her despite my parents blocking me at every move.

My sister rugswept the whole incident and laughed at it saying "you know how mom and dad are"

I think your second sentence sums it up Hithere. With some people, that incident would be enough to go NC, while others would find a different way.

My own father insisted on putting sugar in my daughter’s tea in spite of my wishes. I simply refused the offer of tea when we visited .....there’s usually a simple solution, even if it does become a battle of wills - the parent always holds the aces. A little distance or creative thinking can achieve so much without the nuclear option which I consider NC to be.

No, I hadn't guessed the GP's in your post were your parents Hithere. Where as I don't agree with GP's going against the parents wishes, which my m.i.l. would do, why the problem with your jaw when the GF, I assume you mean your F, said he wanted to be the father to his GC that he couldn't be to his D's?

A lot of GP's I'm sure have the same thoughts. They get to do fun things, and don't have to worry about the every day trials and traumas that parents do.

I think your entire post sums it up, and not just the second sentence. You refer to your own father as your niece's GF. You describe your sister as being then, and still being in the FOG. Perhaps your sister is more tolerant and understanding of your parents than you are.

"There is no way the GP were in charge of my daughter for even 1 second". The GP!! you are talking about your own parents.

As Pantglas has posted, the fruit incident for some would have been enough to go NC, whereas others would find a different course of action.

Would I have gone NC for that? No I'd have been very angry and made my feelings known whether it had been my parents or my in laws.

If your sister is as you say still in the FOG, in a relationship with your parents, why did the incident you referred too lead to you going NC? It didn't involve your child, it happened to your niece.

Pantglas

Thankyou for your kind comments, but I’m afraid they’re largely undeserved, I sometimes wonder what my poor dad would have made if it all

@Hithere - Feeding the fruit was stupid and wholly unacceptable. The GP must have felt mortified and so guilty, isn't that punishment enough?

HiThere and Moving on, your very long detailed posts on abnormally disfunctional grandparents is quite frankly amazing. One wonders how they managed to raise adult children. With claims like this I can see the attraction of losing contact the with some children.

Peonyrose

HiThere and Moving on, your very long detailed posts on abnormally disfunctional grandparents is quite frankly amazing. One wonders how they managed to raise adult children. With claims like this I can see the attraction of losing contact the with some children

No one said these were "abnormal and dysfunctional grandparents." Those are your words and your claims - not mines.

Also parents who are perfectly normal and were not dysfunctional AND were obviously capable of raising great adult children - can also end up being cut of for several reasons.

Some grandparents (for example -before someone misquotes my words) have difficulty letting go of their parental role once their AC are adults, and feel the need to try and continue parent their now married adult children. Others may have issues coping with the empty nest syndrome, and want their family intact like it used to be prior to ACs being adults. Then they become intrusive and overbearing - get defensive and retaliate when normal boundaries are placed, and continuously break these boundaries for they aren't used to anyone telling them what to do/feel they know what's best for other peoples children (perfect example on the post of grandparents feeding their grandchild with too much fruit after being told not to - then lying about it). When enough is enough they get cut off (despite your claims of them having raised adult children).

Others just dislike/hate their ACs spouse and this in itself creates conflict for everyone. So when grandma becomes toxic, and brings more conflict than support to the ACs marriage, then contact is typically reduced - with NC following swiftly when nothing changes. I mean the list of estrangement is ENDLESSLY long. Too many factors come into play.

But back to your comment, one doesn't need to wonder how they raised AC, for that doesn't diminish the fact that somewhere along the lines the relationship became too toxic for all parties involved.

But its obvious we see things very differently (as we are all entitled to), so I'm done with this thread and hope your "friend," gets the help she needs. Practice self care and don't let it consume you. All the best!

Peonyrose "abnormally dysfunctional grandparents" sums it up.

@dolcelatte,

No, that is something my parents are incapable of.

Their lack of empathy is very well disguised but shows very often.

Hithere, your story is frightening and, IMO, unforgivable! I'm sorry the GPs are so selfish, uncaring, and dishonest. I can totally see cutting off GPs like that, as sad as it is, b/c they are, clearly, a detriment to the child.

Hithere NC seems a minimum. Some say they have no idea, they were just being GP, what happens at nan's stays at nan's. Never down to just nothing, there are 2 sides, as you show.

I do wonder why FOG takes over (fear, obligation, guilt). I feel none to my parents, they knew better than to have a FOG agenda.

Yet from what you've posted Hithere your sister does not share your view of your parents.

Hithere has pointed out that her parents actually LIED to her sister, and continue to lie.

People who did that would NEVER be allowed around my children. EVER.

There's no need to shout agnurse. Her sister knows they lied and still has a relationship with them.

Both smileless and agnurse are right.

Being siblings and being raised by the same parents does not mean we follow the same decision process and reach the same conclusions.
She is very much aware how dysfunctional my parents are.

I respect how she chooses how to raise her family - despite not agreeing with her decisions - and she does the same with me.
My parents will never meet and have never met my kids.

I truly do not want to highjack this thread. My apologies, Peony!