Spiteful mothers

I especially agree with Bathsheba and LiveLaughLove. I do hope your sons can sort out an amicable situation with their ex's. The children suffer mostly but also the parents and GP's if there is a war. I do agree 'some' DIL's use the children as ammunition. Thankfully, not anymore in my situation (there was animosity to begin with) with my own GC. After a sticky patch where she said if he didn't do what she wanted (it would've meant losing his job) then she wouldn't let him see them. He calmly pointed out that if he did what she wanted, she wouldn't get any child support as he wouldn't be in work. Oh how complicated it all is. One small piece of advice Sweetpea60 is that if you make yourself 'useful' with offers of babysitting (parents will wanting to get back out there) you may find you get to see your DGC. Just a thought.

MIL's have to take the initiative with their ex-DIL's. My MIL was wonderful with the DIL I replaced. She would babysit for her, make cakes, offer help, etc. Unfortunately, she was rewarded by losing every one of her grandchildren when they were moved 250 miles away.

and young children are involved the first thing that the mothers do is use the children to cause further upset as in denying the father acsess and grandparents too.

I wish you;d written SOMEmothers in your OP Sweetpea60

In the terms of my divorce I went against solicitor's advice which was to limit my ex husband's access to the children. He was never bothered with them but I didn't want them to grow up not being able to see their father, or to be able to form a decent relationship with them when they became adults. I'd have been depriving THEM. Why would I want to hurt them like that - even though their father was a distant, uncaring and bad tempered person when they were young?

As it happened I arranged for him to have them one Saturday soon after our separation, and he didn't show up. He was drinking in the pub. Now, however HE has grown up and appreciates them more. I think he is jolly lucky to have such lovely young adults in his life personally, and to be able to enjoy their company, given he was a useless, distant and often angry father to them.

But I am glad for my children that he has learned to appreciate and value them. I'd say that's some good come out of a horrible situation.

Unfortunately i have been in your position and for now I'm still in this nightmare. My precious GS and my D lived with me since he was born in 2013 one day his sporodic father took him out on a visit but failed to bring him home. I haven't seen my GS in almost 2 years now. However we're adults and we do not believe or do we have a justice system. If only one of these people stopped to think of the detrimental impact this has had on someone so beautiful and loving as my little GS surely these evil monsters would not sleep at night one can hope ?

I know Dockersgirl

It's awful to make children suffer, or use them as pawns in a relationship.

In an ideal world, children should grow up not being aware of hatred, animosity and warring parents. Why make children, scared, troubled, bewildered and insecure? It's a hateful thing to do - to play games with their lives.

not just mothers im sorry to say . my daughters grandmother wouldnt see my kids because her son didnt want to see them there loss . i fought tooth and nail so they coyld see their dad but he was busy msking babies elsewhere

My heart goes out to you, when my son split from his partner, he and us, the grandparent, were not allowed to see my grandson or contact him in any way. He was nine when they split up, last year when he was 22, he made contact with his dad and then us, we were over the moon. He is a lovely young man, we see him and his partner occasionally, I don't think his mother knows. I cannot put into words the pain and sorrow we all went through for all those years of not seeing him, just to know if he was ok would have helped. I do hope that your grandchildren come back to you when they can. Flowers

Always two sides to a story, however, my ex-daughter in law never ever denied us access to our grandchild neither to our son his father, so they can't all be tarred with the same brush, get the message

My eldest son split with the mother of his 2 girls when the youngest was about 10 months. She then found a new boyfriend, moved house (to live with this boyfriend), and stopped replying to my son's calls/texts, etc. She would refuse to answer the door when my son called round. She posted photos of the boyfriend holding my son's baby, onto Facebook etc. She did some pretty nasty things to hurt my son.

My son kept up the payments to her, for the children. He flatly refused to think about taking the ex to court, but instead kept up with going to the house, ringing, etc. He stayed polite and calm, and eventually, it all was resolved. The best thing your son can do is to keep up a friendly, decent approach, and to carry on the communication.

3 years on, my son's ex is completely different - she's reasonable and decent, and access is fine. The children are the important people in the situation, and their happiness & stability is what matters.

Sadly children are often used as pawns by both parents - not just mothers. It takes maturity on the part of all the adults to steer a satisfactory path for the children - who have the right to access both parents and their extended family - grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. I remember being annoyed with my parents when they maintained contact with my ex until my mother pointed that if anything happened to me they would loose their grandchildren if contact had been lost. It took maturity on all sides

It's 10 years this Christmas that my ex DIL stopped my DS seeing the children. They were aged 4 and 7. He is happily remarried with two little boys but never hears or sees his adored eldest children. He fought through the course 4 times. Granted contact but she never complied. Lied to the kiddies saying that he was going to kidnap them. She is evil as is her mother who backs her in this cruel deception. We and they have lost so much. The girl is 18 now...old enough to contact her dad but she has been brainwashed. He did spot them in a local supermarket a while ago. The mother (I use the word lightly) wrote to him saying that 'The children were shocked and frightened seeing him there'. It beggers belief how she is abusing these young people by not allowing contact. I miss them and am not sure how I would be if I ever saw them again. These mothers do not realise the damage they cause their children with this Parental Alienation.

Why would you deprive loving grandparents of seeing their adored grandchildren. I really don't know, God forbid if something happens to my sons' marriages, whether I would see my adorable grandchildren, especially in one case. I was talking to someone and they said you shouldn't love anyone too much....the more you live, the more you hurt

Why would you deprive loving grandparents of seeing their adored grandchildren. That is what most grandparents would say, but it does not mean that they are what they say, only that is what they are in their opinion.

I can think of lots of nice and nasty reasons for someone choosing to do this.

It always irks me when people respond to such posts as “always two sides to a story” blah blah. Not always. There are some very nasty, evil minded people who have no regard for anyone but themselves. I have something very like but not the same situation recently. At a funeral last week someone dear to me was totally snubbed by the deceased’s mother and family and not mentioned in the service despite being the deceased’s partner and parent to their three children. This person has done nothing wrong apart from having a partner with a possessive, jealous mother. I know it’s a different situation but there isn’t always two sides. Some people are just awful, period.

It's a personality disorder used to control and manipulate while, sadly, using the children as the tool and traumatizing them in the process. Your son has rights and probably good to remove this person from your family, healing as you move forward keeping your relationship strictly with the children and the opinions of the mother's actions to yourself. Just because you can have a child doesn't make you a good parent.

I've only read the first page so will only comment on that. Some well meaning comments but clearly a lack of understanding about how much some women use their children as a form of control.

To expect a man to use the courts before he has tried every possible means to get contact with his children in naive. Can you imagine how difficult such a woman could be if there was a court order? All the 'reasons' she would find to deny access and make his life hell. Let me give you some examples of things that I know have happened to people I know:

1 A policeman told of his brother who committed suicide because his wife wouldn't let him see his children.
2 A woman who took her children out at the time her ex had a court order to see his children and wouldn't answer her phone. It took 2 policemen a long time to get her to give him the children.
3 A woman who lied to the police and social workers about her husband's violence and when the SW realised she complained about her and got her removed from the case.
4 A man who had a clear case against his wife but refused to make a complaint because her behaviour was so serious she might have been given a custodial sentence and he didn't want that for his children.
5 A man who was paying far too much in maintenance because she demanded it and got into debt before he was advised to look on the CSA website to work out how much he should pay. Then he kept getting letters from the CSA saying that a 'third party' had advised that he was earning a lot more than he actually was.

I could go on but I think that is enough.

Women can be 'spiteful' when they don't get their own way and some are extremely manipulative.

Nonnie

I can see your point. The reason I suggest going to a solicitor and getting a court order is simply that this way there's a paper trail and there is recourse if the mum refuses to let him see the children. I agree with you that a simple discussion should be the first course of action. Unfortunately, if the other party refuses, that's not going to be possible.

Nonnie, the courts are well aware of women who try to thwart their orders and these days, they are quicker to deal with women who do. I know of women who have been threatened with losing Residency if they don't comply and one woman who lost her kid.

There are a lot of immature parents these days.. but then I guess there have always been women that do that when something displeases them.. they don't think about how this might impact on the children or grandparents it's all about them (me) We are in the same boat but with one of my grandchildren...

Nonnie

1. "To expect a man to use the courts before he has tried every possible means to get contact with his children in naive."

But the OP mentioned nothing about her sons either trying to gain contact or exhausting every possible means out there. What's "naive," in my opinion is a grandparent who holds onto the expectation that an ex-DIL (who according to them has just broken up with their partner of 9 years) will go out of her way and facilitate traditional holiday plans as usual. As if nothing very drastic has just occured in both hers and her childs life. Divorce can be extremely hard, stressful and devastating for anyone. OP should given both ex-DIL, her son and her grandchild some time to adjust to their new family dynamics, before branding her ex-DIL as a potentially spiteful woman with the potential to brainwash her own child - solely for she expected her holiday tradition to continue as usual - in spite of the obvious shock and grief that this seperated family may currently be facing.

2. "Can you imagine how difficult such a woman could be if there was a court order? "

The judges have seen and heard it all. Nowadays women loose custody of their children when they continuously violate court ordered custody agreements. Ofcourse there are few exceptions to this rule. Secondly, this argument can't be used as a justifiable means of not going to court and doing things the legal way. She has 3 grandchildren whom she unfortunately doesn't get see. And from her story at least two different ex-DILs. Her sons at some point will have to take some legal responsibility if they want to visit their children, as opposed to relying to the "spiteful woman," narrative. If her sons won't do it, then she should remain neutral and try to form an amicable relationship with ex-DIL. One that would allow her to see her grandchildren occasionally. Before trying to do this, don't let your anger/emotions lead you to stereotype your ex-DIL this way.

And yes women can be extremely spiteful - no one is denying that. But so can men so this cant be used as a justifable lable. Bottom line is if this breakup has just occurred, then OP should step back for a while, refrain from taking any sides in this seperation, withold any anger/emotions and simply give this whole seperation and visitation schedule some time to settle. It maynnot have occured to her that ex-DIL may be grieving, depressed or maybe chosen to rely on her own support system for some healing - before exposing herself to a family that she was once a part of. Maybe her own son is equally depresed and grieving and could'nt care (at least for now) about his mothers visitation schedule/holiday traditions with his children until he too experiences some form of inner healing. Not sure why it has to come down to the grandparents asking " what have we done to deserve this," when its very clear that they are dealing with a family unit that's probably in complete chaos (emotionally at least) right now. You should be a source of support if you can as opposed to getting upset with ex-DIL and stereotyping her. Sorry but maybe with all thatrs going on right now you as grandparents have just been put in the back burner until they can clear their minds. It may also be extremely hard for anyone of them, including your grandchild to be in any celebatory mood with all that's going on.

In the event that ex-DIL becomes difficult, then then the only other option to her seeing the grandchild would be through her son - and only after he goes to court, or if either one of you works out something amicable with his ex-ewife/DIL.

Give the dust a little more time to settle - the open wound of divorce/seperation is all too fresh to make any stereotyped assumptions (especially if you got along great with ex-DIL as you say). I wish you the very best.

ican I do hope you are right. I do think though that a man dealing with such a woman needs to provide evidence that he has done everything possible before going to court. Once the legal system starts up it is hard for some people to back down and they become even more confrontational.

Live my comments were not directed only at the OP, rather more for those who appeared to attack her and seemed not to understand that such women exist. I felt a need to show some of the things I know have happened and to stick up for some men who have been abused and denied access to their children.

Imagine a scenario where a woman has complained several times to the police but there has never been any proof that the man has done something wrong. His name is blackened before he goes to court so he is up against that and the bias towards the mother as well. I know a man this happened to who was assaulted by his wife, with evidence of the assault, but he wouldn't complain because he didn't want her to be taken from the children.

Not all woman are nice and honest, some are spiteful and manipulative and some men are nice and honest, not all are monsters.

Not all men are wonderful fathers ,I knew one who walked away from his two children when his second wife got pregnant.He told his 9 year old daughter over the phone that he wouldn't be seeing them again as he had a new baby on the way!!!That was over 20 years ago ,and he didn't ever see them again,and now he's dead .How are children supposed to cope with a rat like that?

Nonnie sadly you are so right.

Nonnie You are quite right! The word "some" is especially important in this sort of thread isn't it as in "some mothers; "some fathers" "some women"; "some men"! Any generalisation using "all" instead is inaccurate and unfair! I too could give examples to prove/disprove those "all" statements! I suppose, when someone is hurting and upset they may well slip into that type of generalisation - it is perhaps human even if not accurate or fair.

"Give the dust a little more time to settle - the open wound of divorce/seperation is all too fresh " This is good advice from LLL and similar has been said by others too.

Good luck OP!

Nonnie, I think you also have to take into account the nature of the person you are up against. Most people who had an ex who was reasonable should certainly try anything they can to avoid court. However, others (like our son) suffered with an "I'm the mother so what I say goes and there's nothing you can do about it," find that it is better to nip it in the bud very quickly. Courts much prefer to leave "reasonable access" to parents to sort out on the whole but after one session with my ex-DIL, even her own solicitor agreed that "Defined Access," was the way forward. She has gone on to have another 3 children since (all with different fathers) and my son has allowed her to deviate from the arrangements to let her keep their son for Christmas so he got to be with his new sibling. Last year, after a still birth the year before, my son asked if they could vary the arrangement for the their new baby's first Christmas. Not a hope in hell. It's a funny old world!