Estrangement / Cut off Mum

Starlady: "Perhaps we need a definition of "toxic?" One that we can all agree on?"

My definition of 'toxic' has little to do with smacking/spanking - more to do with emotional abuse i.e. regular or constant belittling, manipulating and controlling others, 'blanking' (refusing to speak to) people who disagree with/don't comply with a person, being constantly needy and putting their own needs first.

Anyone can behave in this way - a husband or wife in a relationship, a parent to their child or adult child, an adult child to their parent.

Great to see you back on GN Rhinestone glad you enjoyed your holiday and that you managed to not fall into any boats.

Am I right that your DH's ES has rebuked his father for the way he was punished, even though he's received an apology and explanation for what took place? Has he said this why he's severed contact?

Parenting has without doubt changed over the years but as you say, because something was acceptable then but isn't acceptable now, doesn't mean it was abusive behaviour.

TBH I think the over use of 'abusive behaviour' whenever estrangement is being discussed demonstrates a lack of forethought by some posters. Perhaps when a P and GP is discussing their own situation, asserting that they've done nothing wrong and this is responded too by a post arguing an AC's right to protect their children from abuse, they don't realise that they are implying that the P they're responding too abused their child.

A horrible accusation to make even if done so by implication.

That sounds like abuse.

Good morning from across the pond. DH and I are home from five weeks of no worries and responsibilities. We both needed that time and I didn't fall into any boats. A shark was circling our boat and that was creepy. Mom did not go into the hospital this time so that helped. But we are both sick with terrible colds and coughs so I have been inside for a week. I have had a lot of time to think about estrangement and I realize that whatever excuse our EC have for their behavior is only justifiable to them. They make up excuses in their heads to make their action of estrangement okay. If they couldn't justify their feelings of guilt they wouldn't be estranged. I grew up in a generation where it was okay to spank your children on their bottoms. My mom slapped me once when, at sixteen, I called her the b word.My dad twice on my bottom. Did I estrange myself from them? No. But yet my DH was told by a counselor to take a wooden spoon and spank his son on the bottom as he was always making trouble. My DH said his X at the time ( who was a social worker) was fine with it. It happened several times and that was it. My DH apologized to his ES twenty years ago for being given bad advice. So now thirty five years later he remembers those few incidents and decided to not talk to us all of a sudden even after he and his dad had a discussion and apology about it. Today's generation does not believe in spanking but to call it abuse is ridiculous. When my mom was growing up people got their children off the bottle by souring their milk. Was that abusive? I am all for estranging yourself from abuse when a child is molested or beaten but really a few slaps on the bottom or hand?
Just another excuse to justify the estrangement.

Good posts Starlady. I think we all agree what toxic means it's just that some posters are more than willing to accept that some P's and GP's can be toxic, but are not as willing to accept that some AC and/or their partners can be toxic too.

Perhaps we should define what is meant by smacking and spanking. For me a smack on the back of the hand is just that a smack and I don't consider that to be abusive; spanking is more severe and not something I'd subscribe too. That said, had I been given the opportunity to look after my GC and smacking was not approved of by their parents, I wouldn't have done so.

Maybe it's just me but when the word abuse is used, I don't just think about smacking, I think of some of the terrible things that adults do to children. The phrase 'protecting children from abusive parents and GP's' has been used over and over again in discussions about estrangement.

As an estranged P and GP I find this greatly offensive, the implication that I abused my children and would abuse my GC so they have to be protected from me. Is it just a coincidence that having recently challenged a poster for this terminology, the use of abuse which has not previously been qualified is now said to be referring to smacking?

Perhaps we need a definition of "toxic?" One that we can all agree on?

As far as ac protecting their kids from gps who are known to spank, etc. does that really mean the ac have to co? Can't they just decide not to let those gps babysit or be alone with their kids? Not everything has to be a total co, imo.

Smileless, you're basically saying the same thing my friend says - as much as she misses her ds and gc, the situation was becoming too "intolerable" (yes, she uses that exact same word) to bear.

I'm not saying it is about me and my group, you're the one who keeps saying that. I've never said that abuse or toxicity never happens and I haven't seen any of the EP's and GP's on GN say so either. I have read and demonstrated empathy to posters who have said they've cut out parents from theirs and their children's lives. Really Araabra you're not doing very well are you. Ignoring pertinent posts, accusing me of being short sighted when it's you who has a problem hearing that parents and GP's can be estranged through no fault of their own.

Sorry, have I missed the part of your post in which you acknowledge you were wrong to say I'd said we'd cut our son out? Have I also missed your acknowledgement that you referred to Celeb's title of the other thread incorrectly.

Bibbity didn't say anything about a d.i.l. saying not to post pictures and pictures being posted. Her illustration wasn't that specific, she referred to pictures being posted by a GM.

You know you could save your self furtherif you READ OTHER POSTS PROPERLY.

Yes Araabra, IF I'd have smacked my kids (I didn't) they might have perceived it as abuse and might not have wanted it passed down a generation, I do get your point and can see that some adults might cut off their parent/s because they were smacked as children, abuse in childhood could be a trigger to cut off in later years in "some" cases, I agree.

I perceive your problem hearing any reason why GPs might become estranged as short sighted. This post is NOT all about you and your group. There might be things other GPs could learn if some weren't so determined that abuse or toxicity never happen. Just like the pictures, if dil says don't post pictures of my DC then don't. That's not a bad thing Bippity said, it's the truth.

NO Araabra I didn't say we cut our son out, he cut us out. What I said was it was our choice having been told that we were no longer a part of his life and were to stay away, to do just that.

The title of the other thread contains the words 'fun aspects to rebuilding our lives following estrangement, it doesn't refer to us as a fun group. I think I see why you are so inept when it comes to having a reasonable discussion; you don't read others' posts properly.

Dorothy16 "Thank you for explaining what you meant about financial abuse Araabra and it reminded me of a friend of a friend (UK) who has cut off his mother. When he was a child his father died in an industrial accident, a considerable amount of money was awarded to not only the deceased's surviving wife but also to his baby son for when he came of age. The trust was put in the care of his mother and by the time he had come of age she had almost blew the lot, not on the boy but on herself. I have also heard of similar stories in news items where parents have spent trust fund monies intended for their children, so yes, I understand what you mean and can see why a parent might be cut off for financial abuse in this respect."

"I was smacked as a child and so was my husband, we were children growing up in the 50's, it really wasn't perceived as abuse back then, it was accepted that if you were naughty then you might get a smack on the bottom or legs."

IF you had "smacked" your kids they might not have forgiven the abuse and might not want to let it pass generations.

Smileless2012 "referring to the EP's and GP's on here as a 'fun group'." Celeb named it a fun and support group, not me. Sorry I forgot the 2nd half. Your life doesn't have to be a pity party, you just posted it was YOUR choice to CO your ds instead of walking on eggs or minding "P and q". GPs often walk on eggs and mind their "P and Q". Price to participate.

My mom was a mom not a mum. I'm a mum as are my dds.

Thank you for explaining what you meant about financial abuse Araabra and it reminded me of a friend of a friend (UK) who has cut off his mother. When he was a child his father died in an industrial accident, a considerable amount of money was awarded to not only the deceased's surviving wife but also to his baby son for when he came of age. The trust was put in the care of his mother and by the time he had come of age she had almost blew the lot, not on the boy but on herself. I have also heard of similar stories in news items where parents have spent trust fund monies intended for their children, so yes, I understand what you mean and can see why a parent might be cut off for financial abuse in this respect.

I was smacked as a child and so was my husband, we were children growing up in the 50's, it really wasn't perceived as abuse back then, it was accepted that if you were naughty then you might get a smack on the bottom or legs. It really was just how it was back then, neither of us feel as if we were abused because we got a smack, neither of us cut off our parents because they smacked us as children and we did not stop them from seeing their grandchildren because we were smacked as children.

However, as I mentioned earlier I would not have accepted my children being smacked (spanked) by my parents or parents in laws.

Points of view aren't a problem Norah but insults are. If any further evidence of your appalling attitude were needed Araabra you have supplied it by referring to the EP's and GP's on here as a 'fun group'.

Reallywhat type of person can regard the pain and suffering of others as being members of a 'fun group'?

Wow Araabra you really do have an axe to grind,

I have never heard of a parent stealing their child's identity for financial gain, or anything else. You must move in very different circles (another planet,perhaps?)

A couple of your previous posts (maybe on this thread, maybe not) have referred
to Mama and 'Mom
In the UK, we don't use those expressions, so why would you appropriate them? Are you from across the pond? Just asking....

Can anyone read and comprehend the word possible?

Yes, I said a possible reason for COs is abuse.

It is not a given that children who choose to cut off from parents have been abused as children .a possibility not a given!

Dorothy16 I was referencing any parent (potential GP now) who has spanked their child (the AC now). The AC would be remiss allowing their children (GC) any time with the GP. Reason for a CO.

Dorothy16 "Forgive me for not understanding what you mean by grandparents being cut off for financial abuse"

Have you never heard of parents raising their children's funds? Stealing their identity? That's financial abuse. It happens, this is not all about the "fun group" here, this is cautionary for all GPs.

I am a GP Araabra and carers of my own children as they were growing, including their grandparents knew not to spank them. I think had my children told me that their grandparents had spanked them or if I had seen their grandparents spank them then I would have removed my children, insisted on a meeting between all adults, expressed my feelings and then given them a "one strike and you're out" warning, would I have cut them out 100%, probably not, more than likely just temporarily in the hope that they might reflect on their behaviour. I would never have allowed them unsupervised contact again though and would have kept a very close eye on things.

Of course if spanking of my children or any other abuse continued indefinately then yes, for the sakes of my children their grandparents would have had very limited closely supervised contact.

But, that's me, how I would have handled the situation had my children been abused physically, mentally or emotionally by their grandparents.

Forgive me for not understanding what you mean by grandparents being cut off for financial abuse ?

Araabra. - sure the estranged GP's on here have heard it ad nausem, but thanks for the info.

Eddiecat
I told DH he was toxic* (vis a vis your earlier post). He gave me a one word answer!

Smileless. You missed the Toxic party! No one came, so it was just me and DH - and he fell asleep!

Wifi at this hotel (actually it's more of a motel, I am just being pretentious) is flakey so I may not post further till our next stop on Tues.

By posting here, you've bought a ringside ticket to BSC, from both POV. If you don't want to deal with some of the answers, don't buy a ticket.

Surely some GPs have heard that childhood spanking, mental, physical, emotional and financial abuse are part of COs?