He has done it! The toolmakers son has resigned!

Sorry Casdon and others.
Went away without posting.
I see that you have already corrected the school and father nonsense.

Casdon

I think a lot of us respect people who do their best for the country, whether we agree with their political views or not.

Yes!

As a left-leaning voter I felt sympathy for Margaret Thatcher (going back in time) whose ideology I did not agree with, in that moment when she was being driven away after having been unseated, because I recognised that she had the strength of character which made her believe completely in what she was doing, and not care about whether she was or wasn't popular.

It really is possible to respect an individual whose political outlook doesn't chime with your own.

Which, really, makes it pointless to attempt to debate with those who simply dismiss Starmer as "useless" (or worse sometimes)... and usually do it without evidence of their 'uselessness' too.

Gutted

Casdon

Oreo

It seems the best that can be said for Starmer is that he ‘kept us out of a war’. That can be said about the rest of Europe’s and the world’s leaders too and it was never going to be an option for us either.
Nobody cared about the finer feelings of other failed PM’s so why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth for him? Because he ‘seems like a nice guy’? He didn’t go to Eton? He’s let the country, that’s us btw down by being a useless PM, I wasn’t keen on him to start with, had many doubts about him which have come to pass.

That’s not true Oreo, there was a lot of sympathy for Rishi Sunak across the political spectrum on here, and going back, also for Teresa May. I think a lot of us respect people who do their best for the country, whether we agree with their political views or not.

Agreed, Casdon. I really don't respect tribalism, and can see the good in those who do their best, whether I agree with their views or not. I respect kindness and decency - not in the 'be kind' way that means 'don't speak up', but in the old meaning of doing no deliberate harm.

I don't think KS let the country down at all. He went wrong by not being able to handle the spiteful attacks on him and his cabinet (mainly the women) from the day he took office. He chose to rise above it all, and ignore them, but they must have hurt. Ignoring them made things worse, though, and he failed badly to get across the good things for which he was responsible. They were drowned out by the howls of protest about spectacles and tickets and spurious 'two-tier' slurs.

Whether AB will be able to do better with all of that, who knows? The soundbites have already started, and he's not in office yet - have 'The Messiah', or 'Birkenstock Boy' been used on here yet? It's a matter of time, if not.

The jibes are created and sponsored by people with more money than many countries, and are fed to people who prefer not to (or are not able to) look behind them, so they repeat them uncritically. Look at the 'two-tier Kier' slur. It compared the speed with which rioters (largely white) were tried with the length of time the men (both brown) who resisted arrest at Manchester Airport, and ignored the fact that the fast-tracked rioters were dealt with quickly because they pleaded guilty, and the Airport men did not, so a case had to be made against them, and it was not a clear or straightforward case - the jury could not reach a verdict. But never mind any of that - headlines and SM told people that KS had a 'two tier' approach to justice - utter nonsense when you look at his record - and joined in the chorus.

'Rachel from Accounts' is another one. Comparing the Chancellor with a sitcom character is lowbrow at best, and misogynist at worst, but in any case is entirely uncritical. Reeves has the highest financial position in the land, but was compared with a low-status office worker in a way that showed absolutely nothing about the reasons the jibers disagreed with either her approach to economics or her policies - assuming they had any.

Then there is Angela Rayner. Comments about her were disgraceful (and even more misogynistic than those against Reeves), and she was hounded from office for doing far less than the likes of Nadhim Zahawi.

I could go on.

I haven't 'wailed' or 'gnashed my teeth' about Starmer's resignation. I think he was right to stand down, but I was saddened to see a man who had obviously (to my mind) wanted to do the best for the UK that he could have to resign in such a public manner, and admit that he was doing so because his colleagues felt he wasn't up to the job. That can't have been easy.

Mark Carney on Starmer; "It has been a privilege to work alongside Sir Keir Starmer as he has led international efforts to support Ukraine through the Coalition of the Willing, strengthen NATO, improve Arctic cooperation, and deepen the historic partnership between Canada and the United Kingdom.
Throughout, and in the face of exceptional challenges, Keir has acted with principle, determination, and collaboration. The world is safer and allies are more united because of his efforts.
Keir, thank you for your lifetime of public service. I am grateful for your friendship, and I wish you all the best as you concentrate on your "most important job.”
—Keir has a great working relationship with Carney, Macron, Schulz and Zelensky...relationships that he has built up over time. This at a time when international unity is paramount . Imo

Who says national debt is 3 times gdp? Fake.

People holding critical views of Starmer are no more led by the media than those who support him. I am sorry but it is that perspective that will finish Burnham as well.

But he himself said his father is a tool maker! How is the title anything but the truth?

Cossy

foxie48

He didn't really have any other option, did he? I just feel very sad that British politics has become so vile and divisive. No wonder we struggle to get decent people to stand for parliament but just like we get the police we deserve, we also get the politicians we deserve!

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Absolutely this so very sad to read this OP

Galaxy

People holding critical views of Starmer are no more led by the media than those who support him. I am sorry but it is that perspective that will finish Burnham as well.

Can you back that up at all?

It is perfectly possible to look at what he has achieved, and base a judgement on that - very different from chanting slogans, IMO. But I'll be interested to see your sources anyway.

Shabti100

But he himself said his father is a tool maker! How is the title anything but the truth?

Prime ministers are not defined by their father’s occupations, are they?
It would be like a version of Happy Families if they defined us all like that, imagine being 80 and being called Mrs X, the sewage workers daughter. I’m not having a go at sewage workers, before anybody says I am.

I agree Maybee70 that KS has had a good working relationship with Macron. The French President has been quite glowing in his praise of KS, citing his commitment to supporting Ukraine. As well as the usual spiel about restoring relations between the UK and Europe etc.

Thanks Doodledog Casdon and others for maintaining a calm, accurate reflective approach.
I’m losing the will to participate when so many comments are totally inaccurate
Of course it’s possible to empathise with Thatcher’s distress on being forced out. I loathed he politics but she was a human being, doing what she believed was right for the country

I reluctantly joined the Starmer isn’t leading the party well, he needs to go group. That didn’t stop me acknowledging his resignation speech as a true reflection of his views. Or from recognising a decent man who’d done what he believed to be right for his country
Tribalism can be destructive

Oreo

CatsWhiskas

"Being useless" is your opinion. It's not a statement of fact.

If he had been really useful as PM he wouldn’t have to had to resign.

That's a non sequitur.

You have given your opinion without justification, not stated a fact.

It isn't really about sources is it, it is about differing views. If you take Southport for example, I think his approach was overly authoritarian, I think many of the people in the riots were also terribly advised in terms of pleading guilty but that is a different matter. I think the release of info about the perpetrator was handled badly. I would actually say the handling of the aftermath of Southport was the start of the end for Starmer, but again there are complex reasons underlying that which arent really Starmers fault. These are a range of views on the matter, and I came to them under my own free will.
I think additionally the decision with regard to Mandelson was horrific, and actually was more of the 'jobs for the boys' that we saw under the tories. None of these are slogans they are differing views on Starmer.
I don't think he was a particularly decent man, I don't think he was a particularly terrible man, and what's more I actually want the media to be a part of those holding the government ( of whatever flavour) to account. Truss, Johnson, all had various nicknames in the media and on social media, the sane applies to labour. There is something in the current outrage culture that leads to the 'targeting' of the PM but all parties are subject to this. I feel a little sympathy for Starmer in that I think he took the role at a time when trust in politicians was at an all time low ( with very good reason) and that wasn't his fault but rather timing.

RSALLAN2002

Who says national debt is 3 times gdp? Fake.

Whatever the ;national debt' might be most people who hold it do not want to have it repaid to them unless they actually ask for it back.

I've often asked on the Premium Bond thread who would be happy if the government suddenly cancelled their bonds and sent them a cheque for what they had paid for them? No takers... they all wanted to hold on to their Premium Bonds.

Yet Premium Bonds comprise some £135 billion of the national debt...

(about £4 billion is paid out in prizes each year)

MayBee70

—Keir has a great working relationship with Carney, Macron, Schulz and Zelensky...relationships that he has built up over time.

But none of that will matter at all to his detractors. In fact, to the 'two-tier-Keir' and 'Starmer is a W**ker' brigade, it will positively work against him.

MaizieD

What a horrible thread title. Starmer's detractors vindictive to the last.

Hear, hear. How very catty & rude some people are! I thought that sort of talk was a thing of the past. Perhaps its a generational thing. Shocking & mean.

I think Starmer is cloth eared and stubborn while at the same time having no political vision beyond getting close to the EU.
I also think he’s a weak leader.
He may well be a pleasant person, none of us know whether he is or not but am prepared to think he is but that cuts no ice as a PM.
I’m glad he’s going as not least for the reason that Labour now have a much better chance of winning the next GE.

Shabti100

But he himself said his father is a tool maker! How is the title anything but the truth?

It's not untrue. Just disrespectful.

How would you like it if at an event that that was important to you, you were introduced as "the tool-maker's daughter / the plumbers daughter / the vet's daughter or whatever?

Chances are you'd prefer your given name.

The difference is Galaxy, that you expressed a view, which is everybody’s prerogative. There’s a big difference between expressing a view and saying things which are actually untrue, which some people have done on this thread.

I always liked Kier Stammer .. He didn't waffle on endlessly.. I believed him when he stated something, I admired him when standing up to that awful American President ... He was a polite, kind man ...Thank you Kier ...

I'm just pleased that KS's children haven't been dragged into this discussion, or had any exposure.
I remember the horrible posts on here about Boris' little Wilf when he stepped down as PM. How the poor child would never experience love or care from his father etc. So yes some people were very rude and catty then too because they disliked the person.

MartavTaurus

I'm just pleased that KS's children haven't been dragged into this discussion, or had any exposure.
I remember the horrible posts on here about Boris' little Wilf when he stepped down as PM. How the poor child would never experience love or care from his father etc. So yes some people were very rude and catty then too because they disliked the person.

Well said.

It isn't really about sources is it, it is about differing views.
That's fair enough, but not what you said upthread:

People holding critical views of Starmer are no more led by the media than those who support him. I am sorry but it is that perspective that will finish Burnham as well.

A different view is one thing, but the rather condescending faux sorrow for what you see as the inevitability that the perspective of those who don't pour scorn on Starmer will lead to the demise of Burnham is not about that, is it?

You do seem to look down on those who don't sit on the fence politically these days. I realise that the people you call 'progressives' got the trans 'debate' spectacularly wrong, but there are other things to get exercised about now that that battle is won.

I absolutely agree that many on 'the left' were idiots about it - men will never be women, whatever they say - and I understand a reluctance to take some of them seriously as a result, but until a new generation comes along that's pretty much all we can do. The alternative is to hand over the country to Reform, or others who may share our biological realist perspective on 'gender', but are otherwise poles apart from my other views.

That does not mean that I am an idiot, though, or that anyone who hasn't written off any idea of a more equal and egalitarian society is politically naive. I don't assume that those who don't think like me are stupid, and am on record for saying that IMO at least some of the support for populist parties is driven by those who do make that assumption.

My post upthread was not saying anything like that, but pointing out that the media have been responsible for a lot of the sneering - that's how soundbites work, and I gave examples of them in action to back up my point of view. Agree or disagree - that's the point of a discussion, but vague condescension is not debate.