Makerfield: Reform candidate sexist?

No. We are dealing with a new development here which reminds me greatly of politics in the 1930's and reminds me of Oswald Mosley, supported internationally in Europe as well as a mixture of the aristocracy as then was and very ordinary people who had suffered a great deal in the financial Great Depression of the 30's.

Surely we don't need reminding that they portrayed Jewish people as "the Enemy" just as now its "Immigrants" and the backing of Trumps friends and the very very rich with very little awareness just how few % are irregular.

See the likeness? Remember our history and where that ended up.

Dont let it happen again, nor walk blindly into it.

MOnica

I can see what you are getting at, but think you are underestimating the appeal of Farage/Reform to an awful lot of voters and ignoring the growing dissatisfaction with, not only Starmer, but mainstream politics in general and the two parties that, up until recently, monopolise this.

I also believe you are too easily dismissing the powerful - and wealthy - entities behind this movement towards Reform; invested 'interests' that once lent their support to the Tories are now shifting over to Farage in order to protect that very structure of wealth and power.

If you treat it, Reform, like any other party - the Libs, Greens, SNP - you run the risk of having the rug pulled from underneath your feet; when was the last time you saw either of those last three generate violent revolt and clashes with the police which involved a handful of officers having to go into hiding?

Our FPTP voting system means that a party with numerically the least votes can still become the party in power. If you want to see how quickly democracy can be demolished by populism, just look over the pond. In spite of the fact that our political systems differ, the driving forces behind populism are the same. Farage is not Trump, he is more articulate and intelligent - that makes him even more dangerous.

I acknowledge what you are saying, but I disagree with your conclusions.

I too rember Patrick Gordon Walker. I'm not happy about an unnecessary election being called just to satisfy one man's ambition. I'm glad I do not live in the constituancy. I

People do like setting up Reform as the big bad bear. They are like the Greens , who eually have wild policies that would restrict our freedoms. Reform like talking about these policies because it gets them attention and all those who do not like Reform rise to Farage's baiting like Pavlov's dogs.

As we have seen in almost every government manifesto pledges melt away like snow in summer when the governing party have to deal with the real governing and all the problems that instigating some of their policies will cause.

It would be just the same for Reform. If by some existential horror they won an election. They would uickly find out how difficult it would be to implement many of these policies.

i really think we should just treat Reform as another party like the LibDems, Greens, SNP . Instead of rising to every tiny bait farge throws. We should take the party seriously. Treat its voters with respect and oppose and object to various policies.

Farage is nothing if he is not centre stage and living up to his reputation as a nasty bit of work. Were we all to calm down, refuse to rise to his taunts and just treat everything he says like you would from any other party leader and generally ignore him, he would soon get bored and mss all the attention.

I agree with your post Doodledog, I voted Starmer as leader and until recently supported him, no need to detail all the things contributing to my change of mind but his time as leader must end

Andy Burnham is a more experienced and confident person than when he stood previously. He’s a very popular Mayor and has demonstrated he can see what needs doing and crack on.

He grew up and lives in the area, his children went to local schools.

People tempted to vote Reform because they have simple slogans to complex problems need to remember their position on the nhs, equality, human rights, race, disability and particularly its views and impact on women.

I don’t remember Patrick Gordon Walker, but I hope Burnham wins.

It may be that he is personally ambitious - at that level in politics they all are - but for whatever reason Starmer has been vilified from day one, and if we are to avoid a dictatorship he probably needs to go. It’s a shame (in fact it’s a disgrace), but even people claiming to have voted for him have complained about everything he’s done from the start, and the media have been after him, too. His Comms team are dreadful and he’s unpopular.

So, how to stop a party who is gaining traction despite openly saying they will repeal the Equality Act and stop recognising the European Court of Human Rights on Day One of getting into power? That would wipe out all women’s rights at a stroke. Our daughters and granddaughters would lose everything we and our mothers fought for. People of colour would be set back generations too, as would the disabled. Robert Kenyon has made the contempt in which he holds women very clear. He hasn’t been censured by his leaders, which shows their true colours too.

Burnham is popular, but he wasn’t in a position to get into parliament without the resignation of another. The Makerfield MP’s sacrifice has given him a chance to step in and try to turn things round. I don’t think he is wrong to do that - the stakes are too high to ignore.

I don’t have a vote in Makerfield, but I wish I did, so I could do my bit to hold back the tide of regressive policies that we will face if Reform is not stopped from getting into government.

MOnica, Andy Burnham does have connections with the area. He used to be the MP for Leigh, part of which is in the current Makerfield constituency. He went to school in Newton-le-Willows, which is just south of the constituency. I suspect he knows quite a bit about the area.

The Reform candidate hasn't been entirely truthful about his own background. Apparently he was brought up in St Helens, which is a neighbouring constituency.

Andy has life long connections to the area.

In the past more MPs had experience away from politics. They were businessmen, trade union officials etc etc, who came into Parliament in their 40s.

Nowadays, so many politicians are career politicians. Andy Burnham is a classic example. he went to Cambridge University then worked for several leading MPs as a special advisor and had other union jobs close to parliament.

I think this has led to a deterioration in the uality of MPs and also their connections with their constituency.

Andy Burnham is a classic carpetbagger, an MP is offered incentives to retire, when he does the Labour party bring in their man, with no connections in the area, knowing nothing about it, just because he needs to be an MP to further his career.

If I lived in this constituency, I would probably vote Reform, despite holding the party in contempt. There are few Reform MPs, one more will not be significant, There will be another electionin a few years, The Labour party will have a different candidate and win the seat back.

Last time Labour tried to railroad a carpetbagger into a constituency, he lost massively (anyone remember Patrick Gordon Walker). I hope it happens again.

“And you didn’t wake up in the morning wondering what fresh hell had been unleashed over the past 24 hours”

Well put Dickens. My routine is go downstairs, kettle on, dogs out in the garden, switch on radio four as I make that first cup of tea. These days I hear the 7am headlines with some trepidation

Yes we’ve always had sexist men in politics. I bet many of us recall the men expecting women at political meetings to look after the children and brew up. But the arrival of the orange monster across the sea has changed things for the worst

foxie48

I don't think Reform has any quality control unfortunately they have lots of money, courtesy of foreign donors of one sort or another. This means they can spend lots of money on advertising, different sorts of social media that goes to their target markets and, of course, funds GB news. Fox news in the US helped to create Trump and get him into power and Reform is using similar tactics to try to get Reform/Farage into power. Reform's use of social media is far better than any of the other political parties and it does influence those people who generally wouldn't watch BBC, ITV etc or read any newspapers, which are subject to OfCom or the laws of libel.

I recall an era when councillors, MPs, and other politicos had a little more gravitas - could articulate and, in some instances, came to the job having had some experience in the field. I don't mean individuals like Ted Heath who always spoke as if he was chewing a plum at the same time, but men (mostly) and women who - regardless of party affiliation - when they held forth, didn't leave you with that same sensation you get when someone scrapes their fingernails on a blackboard.

They weren't flawless, and there was sleaze, but they did appear to be a little more mature. And you didn't wake up wondering, before you switched on the morning news, what fresh-hell had been unleashed over the last 24 hours...

IYSWIM

I think sexist men historically existed in both main parties - but they didn't have the option of enhancing their views on social media back then.

But in any boardroom, club, or pub, where men gathered, you could always count on hearing some views on "wimmin".

Kandinsky

Honestly. you’d think sexist men were only invented the year Reform UK was born ( just 7 years ago )
Who were these men voting for before Reform?
Mostly Labour I’d say.

They were probably voting for Reform's predecessor, UKIP, where Farage dwelt for a few years.

I don't think Reform has any quality control unfortunately they have lots of money, courtesy of foreign donors of one sort or another. This means they can spend lots of money on advertising, different sorts of social media that goes to their target markets and, of course, funds GB news. Fox news in the US helped to create Trump and get him into power and Reform is using similar tactics to try to get Reform/Farage into power. Reform's use of social media is far better than any of the other political parties and it does influence those people who generally wouldn't watch BBC, ITV etc or read any newspapers, which are subject to OfCom or the laws of libel.

Wyllow3

You see, it didnt't bother me a bit he was not a successful career man, but it bothered him and he couldn't get over it.

If being a successful career man becomes your raison d'être, nothing will placate the perceived failure and I'd imagine that sense of losing control over his 'destiny' put you in the firing line.

As for Kenyon - I wonder what his mother and sister feel about his comments? He's admitted he's sexist - "sorry, but I am" said he.

I think Reform's Quality Control needs a shake-up.

We have seen leaps and bound forward from a whole number of men, but clearly with levels of current abuse etc not enough:

Work in progress for us mums, grans, friends, at work, where we go.

I'm quite clear in my heart and mind that my Ex who was coercively abusive was deep down frightened of women's power. Not because they had got jobs at work or obvious equality issues - tho there were rumblings about equal ops - he had had a s**t nasty father who had put his mum down all his life and know it but repeated it.

it took me along time to cotton on. there were hints like he wouldn't own that, for example, that we women together talk differently sometimes and - gasp - talk about men even them!!!

That he had had trouble work wise becoming the success he had wanted to be, and tried to keep dominance by putting me down in a myriad of little ways.

You see, it didnt bother me a bit he was not a successful career man, but it bothered him and he couldn't get over it.

work in progress as the generations go on

but the likes of Kenyon are taking us backwards in so many respects I don't know where to begin

it could be so very different - and what men or women are like in their own lives does say something about them as a politician, you an say what you like but how we treat those closest to us is really significant.

I suppose when a certain group has always dominated society, almost wordwide, since time immemorial, they are going to react defensively when their authority is challenged and they are told that they must treat those they were accustomed to dominate as their euals.

It isn't a lot different to the end of colonialism when the 'mother country', and their were many 'mother countries' are told by colonies that they are uite able to govern themselves without outside help. This led to violence and anger as the country in charge, at first, rejected these claims.

However, even allowing for the dominant group having difficulty accepting their loss of authority, that is very different from aggressively trying to keep extreme authority by vicious, in this case, misogny.

Wyllow3

One has to wonder if some of those locker room voices have to put women down as they are afraid: women have a lot of power in aspects of life when it comes to emotional awareness.

I had a long discussion with my son on this subject last year when he came over to visit me from abroad. He also experienced the pub-bar/locker-room "talk" - like his father, he was apprenticed as a Lighterman in the late 80s and it was the same-old, same-old. But he had hobbies and a girl-friend so basically avoided the socialising aspect of the job.

We came to the conclusion that, as many have fathomed, misogyny stems from fear, inadequacy, and maybe lack of self-esteem As is - I think - misandry. I mean, it just is not normal to obsessively hate the opposite sex or another demographic is it?

It's a complex matter so I'm not going to warble on and pretend I've got the answers. But you are right, women do now have a lot more power and clearly there are men who feel threatened by this. As has been said, it comes to something when equality feels like oppression to these men.

My son is emotionally mature, as was his father, my ex - that's not a boast either, neither grew up in an environment where they had to constantly 'prove' themselves. And there are millions of men who are emotionally stable.

I was pondering that there is something also very sad about that age group of men who behave like that, for it doesn't make them happy necessarily to find common ground in abusing women.

I'm thinking of course of the high suicide rate of that age group of men, trapped in a culture that doesn't allow for tenderness and vulnerability.

What I do try to do is encourage the Men's Shed and similar initiatives. One has to wonder if some of those locker room voices have to put women down as they are afraid: women have a lot of power in aspects of life when it comes to emotional awareness.

Aveline 👍🏻

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It took until 2019 for the Oxford University Conservative P to split with the notorious Bullingdon Club for its record of the most appalling misogyny. It's in all classes. sometimes more covert than these examples.

Yes as you say Dickens those very men - but what would they say if their own daughters were subject to this? "Oh we would protect her". We are not "things" to be mocked nor in that sense protected by what should not happen in the first place.

Now we come to Farage, the party leader. It's quite clear, since they knew before Kenyon was chosen, that deep down they don't really give a d* about objectifying women, not really.

What they do believe in because there specify it in their manifestos is scrapping any diversity support for women - yet its the likes of Kenyon that make support still necessary.

Make no mistake - Reform is not out to support women's rights even in the workplace or take care to investigate its candidates.

Wyllow3

Clearly there are those here who appear to believe Kenyons comments are appreciated by women becuase they are younger than 75?

Hmm. Imagine being "courted" by Kenyon knowing you are being "marked" on your shagability, your status amongst the men in the locker room, nothing to do with your real personality, what you have to give to the world, your caring, your warmth, your family life?

There is an astounding lack of information as to any women in his life. Quelle surprise.

Sheesh - give me a break.

Hmm. Imagine being "courted" by Kenyon knowing you are being "marked" on your shagability...

My ex was a Lighterman (1970s). Because we lived in south west London, it was a longish journey home from, usually, the docks in east London; this meant that he mostly had to forego the traditional drink with the other hands after tying-up. To make up for it, when he attended Union meetings in - for example - Canning Town - he would go down to the bar with the 'lads' afterward to socialise and discuss Union issues.

He told me that during these social drinks he often felt quite uncomfortable with the way some of the men talked about women... it wasn't simply that they objectified them - it was the obscene language they used. It made him wince, and he was no shrinking violet. I hasten to add they were not all oafs, and my ex was not the only one who felt uncomfortable. As the evening progressed and the 'banter' got louder and more offensive, often the older men would drink-up and walk out.

What struck me, and my ex, was that these men had mothers, wives and young daughters - I can't compute this.

'Boys will be boys' and 'men will be men' - hmm, that doesn't validate them, not for me. A man joking about a woman's genitals to amuse other men (an example from my ex) is pig-ignorant and needs calling out on his gross, offensive vulgarity. 'Locker-room' talk? Is that really acceptable? I thought it was dying out, a relic from the past. Clearly it's not!

Clearly there are those here who appear to believe Kenyons comments are appreciated by women becuase they are younger than 75?

Hmm. Imagine being "courted" by Kenyon knowing you are being "marked" on your shagability, your status amongst the men in the locker room, nothing to do with your real personality, what you have to give to the world, your caring, your warmth, your family life?

There is an astounding lack of information as to any women in his life. Quelle surprise.

Sheesh - give me a break.

Hear, hear, Dickens. Kenyon is no “ordinary bloke”. The working class family I grew up in would have been horrified by his behaviour and comments. The exception being my father and latterly brother who were ostracised for their violence against my mother and I.