Makerfield: Reform candidate sexist?

Wyllow3

*But this is where politics do come in*

The arguments about limiting abortion are coming from the right not exclusively but it is a prominent plank of thought.

And I would like to see children allowed to be born whatever their needs to have the best quality of life possible. (unless it means living in constant pain and awareness of not just constant pain but "lack".

But some on the Right would also - well, it happening in the USA big time - cut benefits and lots of facilities for people with serious disabilities to lead a life worth living.

so we go round in circles and it is very complex.

I echo your sentiments Wyllow3.

Whilst being firmly 'pro-choice' I am also mindful that disability can strike anyone, any age, anywhere and at any time, too, and our attitude - society's attitude - towards people who, for whatever reason, are going to or already do live a life different to ours really matters.

Oh Rosie, that was my friend's experience.
It's just not really a subject for 'intellectual' debate.
Women should not be forced, in either direction.

When I was pregnant with my youngest child there was an indication of possible spina bifida from the elevated AFP levels in my blood test. Immediately some people, including professionals were counselling me that I should be considering termination so as not to affect my other children and 'put a further burden on the state'. I was refusing and fortunately an ultrasound, (not a routine check during pregnancy in those days), indicated a pregnancy of more weeks gestation so the pressure on me stopped. In actual fact when the child was born it was easily established my original dates were correct and this was just a very large baby! I dread to think of the pressure that would have been exerted had that not been the case.

I used many examples Maizie, the abortion debate was one of them as I had just watched it unfold.
I would agree with the risks of American /British comparisons - I have never been that keen for example on analysing Reform through the lens of Trump.
Farage is in my view much more like a cheap version of Johnson than a version of Trump.

Galaxy, as ever you don’t she away from the complexity and ethical challenges in debates, including those on a women’s right to choose and the challenging issues around disability.

We have recently discovered one of our ten year olds has rheumatoid arthritis. My maternal grandparents both passed genes that influence the frequency of RA and other auto immune inflammatory conditions. These are life long, life changing but modern drugs really help reduce pain , exhaustion and disability. There are so many genetic links to significant health problems. Who would choose not to have children in similar circumstances

^ However I do think a lot of it was American posters and I think culturally, their view of disability may be different.^

I do think it is unfair to make sweeping statements about ‘progressives/the left on the basis of US attitudes.

Americans are, I think, culturally very different from the British and I would hesitate to regard their attitudes as some sort of global norm.

Such credit to your family, Wyllow, and yes, siblings have a different life experience to other families.
Not an easy subject, and never an easy choice.
I can imagine just how 'toxic' an online debate could become.

Yes I know the issues, not in my family, but it has been my work for 40 years, and that may be why when I read the way people were talking about children with down syndrome that I started mentally backing away so to speak.
You speak with such love and dignity about your dgd, there was very little of that in the discussion. However I do think a lot of it was American posters and I think culturally, their view of disability may be different.

But this is where politics do come in

The arguments about limiting abortion are coming from the right not exclusively but it is a prominent plank of thought.

And I would like to see children allowed to be born whatever their needs to have the best quality of life possible. (unless it means living in constant pain and awareness of not just constant pain but "lack".

But some on the Right would also - well, it happening in the USA big time - cut benefits and lots of facilities for people with serious disabilities to lead a life worth living.

so we go round in circles and it is very complex.

Yet now she is with us, I would not be without her for the world, and neither would they, but I don't have the responsibility.

Ah.

So that is at the heart of it.

Those awful choices.

I have never, ever ask my DS and DiL this, but my DGD is very, very severely disabled:

she is nearly blind, has epilepsy, recurring, cerebral palsy, is very learning disabled indeed, is no 11 and soon their home, with 3 other children, will need hoists, carers, and she will never, ever, be able to live an independent life. sometimes very unhappy, but not in constant pain as some are, she doesn't need to be fed with a tube for example.

And of course, will all the will in the world, the other children are affected, as hit takes up maybe 70% of childcare day and some of the night. And they are superb about getting every single resource going: and mum decided to become a speech therapist after she was born:

if they had not been for the level of care they provide she would be close to a vegetable or not with us (constant hospital visits, try new drugs, push for this, push for that)

It was not a choice as oxygen deprivation at birth, unpredictable

but I do think that had they known

at least they had the right to make a choice.

Please don't worry about the direction of discussion. Wasn't 'Thread policing' one of the issues mentioned?

And some would chose to terminate a child with Down's Syndrome.
Some would chose to have the child.
Not all pre natal tests are accurate.
I know this from a young friend's experience.

The debate focused on disability because that was the reason for the termination. A lot if it was a manufactured online storm ( my guess is the original post about the abortion was either untrue or using this event simply for content),
I agree about the right to choose but there are consequences to that. It is likely that the alternative is worse ( women not able to choose) but for me that is a 'price' that I struggle with.
Mostly it was an online storm, but there was something amongst it all about where following a mantra can lead people.

Wyllow3

"The debate is around disability and abortion and the way the pro choice side ( the progressives/left) are describing people with disabilities makes me view them as empty of empathy, souless, call it what you will"

Sorry I'm genuinely not aware what is being said by pro choice on people with disabilities but it feels very concerning, what is it?

I’ve not heard an abortion debate for a long time. I’m very surprised to hear it would focus on disability especially given that only about one and a half percent of abortions are on ground E ( physical/ mental disability of the foetus). Surely any pro-choice support is on the grounds of a woman’s right to choose?

It is a 'twitter storm' Wyllow which isnt the best place for nuance and a lot of it is from an American viewpoint but basically an ' influencer' posted their decision to abort their pregnancy following a down syndrome diagnosis. There then followed online debate between the pro choice and pro life groupings. I can't tell you how dehumanising the statements were from many of the pro choice group about people with down syndrome.
So I suppose what I am trying to say is amongst the orthodoxy of 'a woman s right to choose' it might be possible to think of the implications that has for those with down syndrome for example ( Iceland has pretty much removed down syndrome from its population ).
I realise this is far removed from the Makerfield Reform candidate.

"The debate is around disability and abortion and the way the pro choice side ( the progressives/left) are describing people with disabilities makes me view them as empty of empathy, souless, call it what you will"

Sorry I'm genuinely not aware what is being said by pro choice on people with disabilities but it feels very concerning, what is it?

Didn't notice them.

Of.

Would have been better without the insane use if brackets

Abaolutely.
I totally agree.

Very insightful, Galaxy.

Yes I agreed with many of doodledogs points. I think for me it is often the approach to cultural issues from 'my side' that makes me think well these are no longer my values.
One example would be the current debate on social media around abortion. I am pro choice and always have been, but I am watching my side in this debate with utter horror ( and yes I know social media often magnifies the extremes of belief) . The debate is around disability and abortion and the way the pro choice side ( the progressives/left) are describing people with disabilities makes me view them as empty of empathy, souless, call it what you will. To contradict myself the 'left' frequently follow the be kind mantra without any thought of what that means for people less privileged than themselves. People may have a different view of immigration if they live next to an asylum hostel rather than the middle class interest of being able to eat a range of food from different cultures!
If you are working 50 hours plus in a care home or sweeping the streets it might be quite tricky to have empathy with those claiming benefits ( you will see that every day in your life whereas those multi million pound companies/ individuals who don't pay enough tax will be completely remote).
If you want to fly a flag outside your house you might feel a little upset to be called a bigot when others can raise them outside churches, at national events, etc.
I think the orthodoxy you talk about doodledog covers many subjects not just benefits.

MaizieD

Excellent post at 10.00 Doodledog

I second that. DD is one of the most eloquent posters on GN.

... witness...

I do think that some of polities can be well-meaning but lose sight of what the real impact on those most affected by them will be.

I could not (and did not!) have said it more succinctly...

I have never paid for financial advice either, but there is a whole industry out there, so whether or not your friends do or not, there are many who do.

Nothing wrong with that, but to do it and claim to be socialist, when socialism is about contributing to the collective good strikes me as dissonant.

Similarly, you may not complain about paying others, but look at your local FB page and I’d bet a pound to a penny that you’ll see numerous posts from people wanting cleaners/decorators/builders who ‘won’t take your eyes out’ or whatever your local expression happens to be.

Regardless of our personal experience though, people who have degrees and whose children have them too, yet want to deny them to others must have a motive - what do you think it might be?