Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

delete patients- should soley read transgender prisoners safely.

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All

Quite relevant I would think.

Cardamom

^Five biologically male prisoners who identify as transgender women remain housed in HMP Downview, a women’s prison in Surrey, despite the Supreme Court ruling confirming that access to single-sex spaces must be based on biological sex.^

^Justice Minister Alex Davies-Jones confirmed, in response to a parliamentary question from Conservative MP Rebecca Paul, that as of 1 August, five such prisoners were being held in Downview. Since July 2024, seven have been accommodated at the prison in total.^

It is of no surprise that transgender people with male genitalia are housed in E Wing at HMP Downview as it is a dedicated specialised unit specifically to house transgender patients safely prisoners- see 15.20 post.

Cardamom

^All heterosexual males are housed in the male prison estate in England and Wales.^

All? Source for this please.

As of 2026, UK prison policy generally houses trans women in male prisons if they have male genitalia or have committed sexual/violent offenses, regardless of Gender Recognition Certificates (GRC). The majority of transgender prisoners (over 80%) are housed in the male estate, with specific placements based on risk assessments

Data from March 2024 showed 295 transgender prisoners, with 244 (83%) in male prisons and 51 (17%) in female prisons.
^Current Situation: As of early 2026, legal challenges regarding the definition of women in prisons under the Equality Act are ongoing, emphasizing the balance between safety and human rights^

Cardamon. It is indeed important to present correct factual information. Your sources for "GENERALLY?

See gov.uk for New transgender prisoner policy framework published 27 February 2023.

Press release: Transgender women with male genitalia will no longer be able to be held in mainstream women's prions, under new measures coming into force today."

The framework includes an automatic exclusion for Transgender women who had not undergone genital surgery were prohibited from being placed in the general women's estate.

Exemptions can only made in the most exceptional circumstances and only with the express approval from a Minister.

"Under the changes, transgender women in the future will not be held in the women's estate if they retain male genitalia or have been convicted of a violent or sexual offence, unless in the most exceptional circumstances. Exemptions will be considered for those currently held in the women's estate who are assessed as low risk"

Housing policy- "Over 90% of transgender women are housed in male prisons. Those who can not be safely managed in the general male estate may be housed in SPECIALISED units ( your example of one such specialised unit - E Wing at HMP Downview) Sources- Gov.uk and UK Parliament "Prisoner's Transfers- Written questions, answers and statements".

I'll leave it with you to find out more about the transgender specialised unit E Wing at Downview Prison. Sources for you? There are plenty to help you understand this unit, its purpose, design etc. Perhaps start with HMP/YOI Downview; Transgender People gov.uk May 2025.

You also may not understand the make up of some prison estates, that hold different prison populations entirely separately in locations side by side. That is for example a Youth Offender Institution, alongside an Adult prison, alongside a woman and baby prison for women. They do not come into contact with each other. You can investigate further if you so wish.

I do have previous England (not Wales or Scotland) prison experience in my professional portfolio, thank you. I was a member of three separate Prison Health Boards representing the NHS in respect of ensuring the health needs of the prisoners was equivalent, met and to the expected standards.

Cardamom

Alan Baker (now calling himself Alexandra Stewart) was was jailed for life for the murder of John Weir in 2013, after stabbing him 16 times. He has been held in a women's unit in the prison since 2016. In April of this year he was been charged with the sexual assault of a fellow inmate at the women's prison.

Just imagine; you're young, female, frightened and vulnerable and someone, who decides that they put a man's "feelings" above a woman's safety, locks him up in your cell for 23 hours a day.

Apparently, upon his name change to Alexandra Stewart, his previous criminal records were mistakenly wiped clean last year.
He is also in a relationship with a child murderer and abuser, a female prisoner.
Why is this allowed?

It's very convenient for some of these sexual predators to pretend to be transgender.

It does a great disservice to other law-abiding transgender people. Why are the authorities so gullible that they believe them?

Thank you, Cardamom. It is important that correct information is available on this topic, as many people believe things that are simply not true, and as mentioned, reliable statistics are hard to come by.

The same applies to hospital wards, refuge hostels and other spaces that used to be reserved for vulnerable women. I think (and hope) that things are better than they were, but the goal should be that women's spaces are for women, to preserve safely, privacy and dignity. There are plenty of places that men and women can go in mixed company - single sex spaces are relatively rare, so this is not at all an argument for a segregated society.

Five biologically male prisoners who identify as transgender women remain housed in HMP Downview, a women’s prison in Surrey, despite the Supreme Court ruling confirming that access to single-sex spaces must be based on biological sex.

Justice Minister Alex Davies-Jones confirmed, in response to a parliamentary question from Conservative MP Rebecca Paul, that as of 1 August, five such prisoners were being held in Downview. Since July 2024, seven have been accommodated at the prison in total.

All heterosexual males are housed in the male prison estate in England and Wales.

All? Source for this please.

As of 2026, UK prison policy generally houses trans women in male prisons if they have male genitalia or have committed sexual/violent offenses, regardless of Gender Recognition Certificates (GRC). The majority of transgender prisoners (over 80%) are housed in the male estate, with specific placements based on risk assessments

Data from March 2024 showed 295 transgender prisoners, with 244 (83%) in male prisons and 51 (17%) in female prisons.
Current Situation: As of early 2026, legal challenges regarding the definition of women in prisons under the Equality Act are ongoing, emphasizing the balance between safety and human rights

All heterosexual males are housed in the male prison estate in England and Wales.

As the majority of prisoners are heterosexual isn't that all the more reason to keep heterosexual men out of the female estate?

In England and Wales prions now, 9 years on since 2017, all prisoners with male genitalia are. in custody in male prisons.

The Scotland prison estate is separate to the England Wales Prison estate and harder to get figures. Not sure why Scotland is still placing male at birth transgender people with male genitalia in female prisons and what risk assessments they carry out on admission.

The Howard League for Penal Reform Panel researches England and Wales prison estate and estimates up to 5% of prisoners, (ie between 4,000 to 4,850 prisoners) are likely to experience sexual abuse as most incidents go unreported. Recorded (reported incidents) indicates roughly 2% inmates (around 1,850 prisoners) experience unwanted sexual activities. 1000 rapes in prisons were recorded in England and Wales between 2010 and 2023.

I'll leave it to posters highlighting Scotland prison incidents to post such data should they wish.

HMPPS (applies to England and Wales) Equality report 2022-24 published, March 24, recorded a 268 transgender prison population, most legally male, white and held in the men's prison estate. The 268 transgender prisoners were a proportion of 3,315 female and 81,057 male prison estate.

The majority of prisoners are heterosexual and the majority of sexual assaults occur prisoner on prisoner. All prisoners face a significant risk of unwanted sexual activity and risk of sexual assault and rape.

Being in prison custody evidently is a scary and violent place to be.

A transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted two inmates at a women's jail and had previously raped two other women has been given a life sentence.

Karen White attacked two women in 2017 while on remand at HMP New Hall, in Wakefield, for other offences.

White, 52, who is transitioning, was described as a "predator" who was a danger to women and children

transgender rapist has been jailed for eight years for attacks on two women before changing gender.

But where Isla Bryson should serve that sentence has been the subject of heated debate.

There were concerns about the safety of any women held alongside a transgender sex offender placed in a female prison.

Bryson was initially remanded to Cornton Vale women's prison in Stirling, but has since been moved to a men's jail.

It ultimately led to a review and a change in policy which will see all newly-convicted or remanded transgender prisoners initially placed in jails according to their birth sex.

Alan Baker (now calling himself Alexandra Stewart) was was jailed for life for the murder of John Weir in 2013, after stabbing him 16 times. He has been held in a women's unit in the prison since 2016. In April of this year he was been charged with the sexual assault of a fellow inmate at the women's prison.

Just imagine; you're young, female, frightened and vulnerable and someone, who decides that they put a man's "feelings" above a woman's safety, locks him up in your cell for 23 hours a day.

It was indeed a masterstroke of Stonewall's to add in the T and the following letters. Then the T started saying they had been the ones who'd campaigned for years for LGB rights and had secured them. Stonewall was launched in 1989, they added the T in February 2015. 26 years of campaigning by the Trans community and not a thought of being included until 2015. Would that they would consider being so self-sacrificing now and just live their lives without abusing women's single sex spaces and events. Stick to the sex boundaries where it is necessary for the fairness, dignity and safety of women and everything could rub along just fine.

Yes, but sex has always been about power, we're told.

It was a master stroke by Stonewall to put the 'T' in LBT, and then to add an assortment of other initials, so the whole gay movement was neutralised, just as they would like to do with the female sex. Doing that made the link with the gay movement, at a time when it had achieved much of what it set out to do. That gave Stonewall a raison d'être, and allied the trans movement with one that had gained public support. Pride marches were becoming mainstream, and adding 'trans' to the flags and banners, and calling them 'LBT' ensured that some of that support went to the trans movement.

But, TRAs will come and go, just as other subsets have done. They are already losing their grip on so much, thank goodness.

Seeing as you enjoyed that one so much, here's another:

“Unless lesbians go out of our way to say we believe that trans women are literal women,” Lyndsay says, “the assumption is that we are transphobic bigots, and our reputations are trashed.”
“Please just use my first name,” she says, “because if I am identified as being in any way gender critical, trans activists will never leave me alone.”
We meet at Sapphic Central, a spacious pub in central Balham, south-west London, which hosts a lesbian night once a month. The popular evening is always packed, with a DJ in the basement. Rickety stairs lead up to an outdoor space, lined with empty beer barrels, where half of the women congregate to smoke and chat.

Over the past decade and more, extreme trans activism has influenced our major institutions, from charities to universities – even our legal system. And as a result of the mantra “trans women are women”, alongside “no debate”, lesbian dating has been driven underground.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the biggest threat posed to lesbians gathering at a publicised social event was that of thuggish, straight men, boozed up on cheap lager and angry that some women rejected their charms. But today, the danger is from social justice warriors, intoxicated on rigorousness, and an insistence that men claiming to be women can also be lesbians and should not be excluded.

“Every single tactic we use to meet in person, trans activists have done their best to spoil it,” says Lucy, (who does not wish to use her second name). Lucy, 44, a former firefighter who attended the Grenfell disaster, has now retrained as a family law barrister. “They purposely stand in our way. And in recent years, it has got worse.”

In 2020, Lucy was thrown off Hinge, the popular dating app, for stating that she was only interested in meeting biological women. Hinge disagreed – within 24 hours, she was permanently suspended, saying that she was banned for “breaching their guidelines”. In response, Lucy took the story to the media.
There is one dating app specifically for lesbians: it’s called Her, and Lucy had already given it a try. But she encountered a new problem. “Every other profile is a man claiming to be a woman, and presenting themselves as ultra sexualised.”

It was on Tinder that Lucy eventually met her girlfriend, but even there “you are getting a ton of profiles that are meant to be female-seeking-female where it is just men pretending to be females”.

Lucy recalls the early days, in the late Nineties, when she first came to London. “It was magical. On Lewisham High Road, where I lived, there were three lesbian bars.”

Twenty years ago there were dozens of lesbian-only bars across London, and several in towns and cities elsewhere in Britain. Today, aside from the odd pop-up evening, there are virtually none that are exclusively for lesbians.

Kelly Frost, an artist, aged 49, is another lesbian who has learnt from bitter experience that running a women-only night at a so-called LGBTQ+ venue is unlikely to end well. Heated campaigns against such “transphobic” and “trans-exclusionary” practices are quickly initiated, and venue owners, managers and even bar staff, inundated with threats and complaints – and fearful of losing their livelihoods, tend to cave in to the pressure.

LemonJam

Whitewavemark2

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

The. voice of reason- empathy and emotional intelligence. Thank you WWM2

🤬The voice of something but definitely not the ones mentioned!

You're welcome LemonJam

We can't even apply logic to any argument anymore, individual sensibilities reign supreme. Referring to a bearded man with a penis as "Mr" is perfectly acceptable considering the crimes the man had committed, but I was always Team Mellee. If the ruling had gone against her to let his petulant racist outburst trounce hers would have been utterly ridiculous.

Thanks for the 2020 statement link Cardamon.

You haven't addressed the question of what homosexuality has to do with 'gender'

Yep, I'd be interested in hearing more about that too. Especially in light of the gay community having recently issued a statement regarding them being sidelined from the Pride activities that they, themselves, set up to raise awareness of the discrimination homo sexual people have to live with but has now been commandeered by trans. They're furious that, what was once an annual, positive, love filled weekend of activities has become an angry, aggressive demonstration where gay men no longer feel welcome or, indeed, safe. Have a look at this eye opening piece:

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16795/html/

Note to the delicate amongst you; you might find that the tone is unbelievably disrespectful!

MissAdventure

Sometimes its necessary to let people know what's going on, if you're going to need support for your cause.

Yes. Otherwise the nurse could be left feeling depressed and vulnerable at home. There was no reason whatsoever why she should not have sought support and well done to her if she did publicise this ludicrous decision.

She should not have received a warning for referring to a male patient (and convicted paedophile) who was recorded as male in the medical records as he or him.
He should have been warned immediately that abuse of the staff was not tolerated. The NHS Trust only did so after the publicity forced them into it.

outgoing = ongoing