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Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

(168 Posts)
LemonJam Sun 10-May-26 16:03:21

Equal Right legislation protects transgender people from discrimination of transgender people.

How much do your beliefs dominate your political voting patterns. How much do your beliefs influence affiliation to a particular political party? Is it permissible to misgender or deadname transgender women or men? How can we as individuals treat transgender people with respect whilst accepting their male or female sex at birth?

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 11:09:31

Allira

TerriBull

Maybe Jennifer Mellee's going to the press was questionable, but certainly not as questionable as prioritsing the rights of a scumbag over an experienced and capable nurse

Well, she had bee given a final warning and first went for advice to a Christians legal group. This may be what they advised her to do.

Most right-minded people, even her MP, support her.

This man was not transgender, he was using this as an excuse to abuse children. He is in a male prison.
People like him bring disrepute on all transgender people who want to live their lives peacefully without upsetting other people.

Melle's MP wrote a letter to the Hospital Trust seeking support- it's available on line for anyone to read. The MP couches her language "I am informed", "I understand" etc. She said if a dismissal sanction was pursued, Melle would struggle to find work whilst the NMC investigation process was outgoing.

The meeting took place and Melle herself went on record stating her thanks for the Trust giving her a second chance.

The prisoner was transgender and serving a custodial sentence in a male prison.

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 11:06:09

I do agree Allira. I'm remembering the debacle over the Isla Bryson case up in Scotland when NS well and truly backed herself into a cul de sac. Her successor Humza who also tied himself in knots with a feeble "get out" they're not really a transwoman. Surely! the nub of the argument, a cynical manipulation of how some people are identifying as women. How can anyone be expected to make such a distinction in an area where they be rendered vulnerable

Doodledog Mon 11-May-26 11:02:30

Whitewavemark2

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

Well we certainly will disagree - particularly if you throw about terms such as TERF, as that most definitely does not describe me, (or anyone I know for that matter). I only want to exclude transwomen from female spaces, and they are few. IMO they can go anywhere else, and think they are whatever they think they are, call themselves whatever they like, dress how they please etc. Just don't tell me that any of that is 'living like a woman', as women (the female ones) live in all sorts of ways, and men assuming that they know 'the' way is astonishingly arrogant.

I am happy to disagree agreeably, and am not offended by your patronising tone either. I often find the points in this issue are often so obvious that it's difficult not to express them simply, so maybe that does come across as patronising without intending to. Perhaps you feel the same from your 'side'.

You haven't addressed the question of what homosexuality has to do with 'gender'. I would be interested to learn what that argument is, as it is so often brought into discussions of trans issues, and I just can't see it.

Are you suggesting that I am not treating the subject with empathy or intelligence? I am, of course, very sorry to hear that a poster has lost a child. As a mother I couldn't feel otherwise, and would not dream of minimising the pain she must go through. That won't change my mind about the biological realities though, and I think it's rather unempathetic to bring in someone else's personal experiences to make a case - particularly when the poster is a member of this community.

MissAdventure Mon 11-May-26 11:01:53

Sometimes its necessary to let people know what's going on, if you're going to need support for your cause.

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 11:01:36

twaddle

I guess that in theory the hospital should have refused to treat the patient after the nurse was racially abused. How does that compare with the way other patients are treated if they abuse staff?

Yes, hospitals have a duty of care to their staff and have protocols in place for all patients that lunge at staff and make racial slurs. This patient, hand cuffed to the 2 prison guards would be subject to the same protocols as any other patient.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:51:36

TerriBull

Maybe Jennifer Mellee's going to the press was questionable, but certainly not as questionable as prioritsing the rights of a scumbag over an experienced and capable nurse

Well, she had bee given a final warning and first went for advice to a Christians legal group. This may be what they advised her to do.

Most right-minded people, even her MP, support her.

This man was not transgender, he was using this as an excuse to abuse children. He is in a male prison.
People like him bring disrepute on all transgender people who want to live their lives peacefully without upsetting other people.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:47:02

ViceVersa

Cossy

People should be able to live their lives in peace, it doesn’t matter one fig to me if they are gay, straight, trans gender or choose to live their (adult) life as something else entirely.

So long as they are good, honest, kind and law abiding people, I couldn’t care less.

I respect other people’s rights to hold their own views and to express them, but I don’t condone discrimination of any types and so long as trans gender “rights” don’t overrule or overthrow biological female rights and safety, I’m OK with this too.

Biological sex and gender are two entirely different things.

Nobody can change the biological sex they were born in. They can, and should, be able to “adopt” a different gender and happily live their lives this way.

I could not have put it better myself. Thank you Cossy.

This patient was not living this life in peace though, was he!

He was a convicted sex offender, paedophile, in a high security men's prison, listed as male on medical records. He attempted to attack the nurse treating him and racially abused her.

He was not happily and peacefully living life having adopted a different gender, was he.

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 10:47:01

Maybe Jennifer Mellee's going to the press was questionable, but certainly not as questionable as prioritsing the rights of a scumbag over an experienced and capable nurse

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 10:42:42

"Law abiding" They won't be if trans women are still accessing women only spaces. As for kind or honest, I don't see that in those trying to crash gatherings for women only trauma, such as one for women who have suffered genital mutilation, mentioned up thread or indeed any other horrors a woman only meeting might be about, pertinent only to those who have had personal experience. Or expecting lesbians to not exclude a male person who identifies as a woman as a prospective partner. There is no empathy there to a fellow human being, it's all about a perceived entitlement to inclusivity at any cost. Menacing and vengeful spring to mind.

I do think conflating trans men with the excesses of those on the aggressive side of the trans women spectrum, like the non confrontational trans woman, they aren't the problem. This argument will rumble on because one side will not admit some of the problems that have presented once "the trans" issue entered the public domain. We all pretty much acknowledge that within their numbers many are peaceful, good people, but to want to feel safe and respected as a woman is not unreasonable.

ViceVersa Mon 11-May-26 10:41:55

Cossy

People should be able to live their lives in peace, it doesn’t matter one fig to me if they are gay, straight, trans gender or choose to live their (adult) life as something else entirely.

So long as they are good, honest, kind and law abiding people, I couldn’t care less.

I respect other people’s rights to hold their own views and to express them, but I don’t condone discrimination of any types and so long as trans gender “rights” don’t overrule or overthrow biological female rights and safety, I’m OK with this too.

Biological sex and gender are two entirely different things.

Nobody can change the biological sex they were born in. They can, and should, be able to “adopt” a different gender and happily live their lives this way.

I could not have put it better myself. Thank you Cossy.

twaddle Mon 11-May-26 10:40:24

I guess that in theory the hospital should have refused to treat the patient after the nurse was racially abused. How does that compare with the way other patients are treated if they abuse staff?

Cardamom Mon 11-May-26 10:39:33

Interesting that my account, my feelings are so easily dismissed . “How did you know “. I’ve lived 77 years and learned a thing or two.

You're being gaslit Iam64; it happens to women with critical thinking skills.

twaddle Mon 11-May-26 10:38:50

Melle was actually suspended for going to the media and potentially breaking patient confidentiality.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:38:48

butterandjam

Ilovecheese

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

The patient was brought to the hospital in restraints for a urinary infection requiring a catheter.Melle referred to the patient as "he" and "Mr." when discussing the medical procedure with a doctor.

Because the catheter was in the male's penis.

The patient was a convicted paedophile with a beard and male genitals. The patient was admitted from a high-security male prison and was listed as male in medical records. He is a racist too and he attempted to attack Jennifer Melle physically.
Another medical professional also referred to the patient as male but was not investigated.

Why anyone should expect to be concerned about his sensitivities is puzzling as he has patently shown none for others, including children. Politeness, yes, whoever the patient, but he only claimed to be a young girl on social media so that he could lure and abuse young boys.

When I have visited hospitals there are notices in every department stating that abuse of staff will not be tolerated.

Allira Mon 11-May-26 10:18:24

Jennifer Melle's case highlights the extreme end of the spectrum, the type of person who will seek recourse to identifying as a woman. A paedophile prisoner who was admitted to hospital for a urinary infection, anatomically specific to his sex. For not following due protocol in her addressing him as Mr, for her crime, whilst she was racially abused by a sexual deviant, she's suspended. What that case, along with Isla Bryson's and others, these are people who are cynically manipulating the law for their own ends. I don't believe for one moment a man who has raped a female is in the wrong body, I think the fact that he has committed that act would tell him exactly what body he's inhabiting.

👏 Spot on Terribull.

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 09:59:25

Cossy

People should be able to live their lives in peace, it doesn’t matter one fig to me if they are gay, straight, trans gender or choose to live their (adult) life as something else entirely.

So long as they are good, honest, kind and law abiding people, I couldn’t care less.

I respect other people’s rights to hold their own views and to express them, but I don’t condone discrimination of any types and so long as trans gender “rights” don’t overrule or overthrow biological female rights and safety, I’m OK with this too.

Biological sex and gender are two entirely different things.

Nobody can change the biological sex they were born in. They can, and should, be able to “adopt” a different gender and happily live their lives this way.

I agree with you in entirety Cossy.

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 09:58:33

Whitewavemark2

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

The. voice of reason- empathy and emotional intelligence. Thank you WWM2

LemonJam Mon 11-May-26 09:56:27

Whitewavemark2

According to the 2021 census there are approx. 262k or 0.08% per 10000 people identifying with some sort of body dysmorphia. This will include all trans people both male and female as well as those with body dysmorphia who have not transitioned - who indeed may never do so and in fact later identify as their birth sex.

This issue has, as been argued been blown out of all sense, and to read some of the posts I can’t imagine a single community that has the level of issues you are claiming.

Yes, sex is frequently about power, nothing new in that.

And please don’t patronise us by giving a lecture on sexual orientation, trans etc. you really are teaching your grandmother etc.

I have no doubt that this is a cultural issue that will resolve over time, just as homosexuality did. Indeed I am old enough to remember openly illegal gay scenes before 1967 - to the horror of many in the community - claiming all sorts of dire consequences. Never happened did it?

I have a friend whose daughter has throughout her mid-late teenage years suffered body dysmorphia and identified as a young man, not a single person I knew made an issue of this, everyone accepted her decision and addressed her as male etc. using the appropriate pronoun although I always get muddled with “them” 😊. That young person has now reached the decision to identify as her birth sex and does so. I am certain that she would have identified as transitioning in the 2021 census. So these figures will be inaccurate I think.

I am also old enough to remember when the woman’s scene was wise enough to openly embrace difference and not other.

What happened to that wisdom?

👏 👏👏

TerriBull Mon 11-May-26 09:14:18

Anecdotal testaments about trans people people and their merits, which they no doubt have, really have no bearing on those who the receiving end of threatening behaviour and sexual assault. As with any demographic trans people will encompass the good. Nevertheless, because of recent developments when all this kicked off and became a whole industry, there are those who are cynically manipulating a situation that has allowed them access to women spaces. Quite possibly that had gone on under the radar, because, as most of us accept, there were and are the "quiet" trans women who did and do not present a threat to women per se. and I think if we could wind back to those times there wouldn't have been the disquiet there has been around the issue. Not to mention all the matters that have unfairly impacted on women, sport, adapting language in a ridiculous way to accommodate the sensibilities of the few "chest feeders" "cervix holders" "birth givers" whilst simultaneous insulting women and at times describing them as a mere collection of body parts. As always, it's always gone just one way, the trans man has never been the problem. I can't recall any man stating he's been threatened by a trans man with violence or sexual assault, happy to be corrected though.

Going back to the anecdotal "if you only knew the trans people I know maybe you wouldn't react in the way you do" without a nod to any of the more worrying aspects that frame part of the argument. Trans women who have been allowed into women's spaces, such as Karen White who went on to assault female inmates when he was allowed in the women's wing of a prison. There was a case a few years ago of a woman on an all female ward who was raped by a trans woman, at the time the NHS refused to accept that could have taken place stating that there were no men on the ward and obfuscating around the fact that the trans woman was in fact a biological male. The victim's case which dragged on for a year, was taken up by Baroness Nicholson who cited this incident illustrated the dangers of allowing trans patients on female wards and that should be withdrawn. Private spaces do matter, particularly where women and girls would find themselves in a state of undress. Health clubs can have very limited curtained off cubicles, I'd always make for one of those when I took my boys when they were small into the women's changing room. Incidentally, how ridiculous to have the arbitrary age of 7, as it was then as a cut off point for no longer being able to bring a boy child into the women's, but to allow, before the ruling, a fully intact man in on the basis he identifies as a woman and I would also add, having been a member of various health clubs over the years, depending on its size, there are those quiet times when you can find yourself on your own when emerging from a shower area with just a towel around you. I worry more for younger women, particularly adolescent girls being in that sort of situation.

Jennifer Melle's case highlights the extreme end of the spectrum, the type of person who will seek recourse to identifying as a woman. A paedophile prisoner who was admitted to hospital for a urinary infection, anatomically specific to his sex. For not following due protocol in her addressing him as Mr, for her crime, whilst she was racially abused by a sexual deviant, she's suspended. What that case, along with Isla Bryson's and others, these are people who are cynically manipulating the law for their own ends. I don't believe for one moment a man who has raped a female is in the wrong body, I think the fact that he has committed that act would tell him exactly what body he's inhabiting.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 11-May-26 09:11:05

Hmm.

Don’t think twice about my being offended, it takes more than a bit of patronising to offend me.

I can see that this debate is going to be pretty prolonged, but suffice it to say, that we must agree to disagree on much of this subject ( not entirely, but hopefully disagree agreeably as they say), I am and have been a feminist for my entire life, but sub-sets like TERF simply do not float my boat and I frankly think them misguided and often plain wrong.
I know of one GN poster - whose child committed suicide over gender dysmorphia - so the subject always needs to be treated with a degree of empathy and intelligence.

But there you are, TERF will come and go just as so many different sub-sets have done over the millennia. That is what history teaches you.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 11-May-26 08:49:35

Galaxy

Whitewave you started a thread not so long ago about your concerns about what had been done to children in terms of transitioning. Have you now changed your mind.

No of course not.

Doodledog Mon 11-May-26 08:37:24

Whitewavemark2

According to the 2021 census there are approx. 262k or 0.08% per 10000 people identifying with some sort of body dysmorphia. This will include all trans people both male and female as well as those with body dysmorphia who have not transitioned - who indeed may never do so and in fact later identify as their birth sex.

This issue has, as been argued been blown out of all sense, and to read some of the posts I can’t imagine a single community that has the level of issues you are claiming.

Yes, sex is frequently about power, nothing new in that.

And please don’t patronise us by giving a lecture on sexual orientation, trans etc. you really are teaching your grandmother etc.

I have no doubt that this is a cultural issue that will resolve over time, just as homosexuality did. Indeed I am old enough to remember openly illegal gay scenes before 1967 - to the horror of many in the community - claiming all sorts of dire consequences. Never happened did it?

I have a friend whose daughter has throughout her mid-late teenage years suffered body dysmorphia and identified as a young man, not a single person I knew made an issue of this, everyone accepted her decision and addressed her as male etc. using the appropriate pronoun although I always get muddled with “them” 😊. That young person has now reached the decision to identify as her birth sex and does so. I am certain that she would have identified as transitioning in the 2021 census. So these figures will be inaccurate I think.

I am also old enough to remember when the woman’s scene was wise enough to openly embrace difference and not other.

What happened to that wisdom?

Sorry, but what has your experience of the 1960s gay scene got to do with trans issues in 2026? The conflation makes no sense to me, but maybe you can explain?

I'm sorry if my post offended you, but it was intended to explain to those who don't understand the difference between sexuality and 'gender' - clearly there are many who don't. I find it patronising to be told about the fact that gays were discriminated against, as though I'm not fully aware of that, but I also understand that not everything is about me, and maybe some posters were living under a rock when it was going on.

I'm not denying gay discrimination - I just think it is irrelevant to trans issues. As I say, if you can explain the connection, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Also, the suggestion that women who fight for our right to have female spaces are somehow unfeminist (or even anti-feminist in some cases) is also offensive. When the women's movement started we were not being threatened by TRAs, we were able to call ourselves women with no ambiguity, and we could use changing rooms and showers without worrying that men would be watching. I guess what happened to the 'wisdom' that allowed men to walk all over the women's movement is that years of being told to 'be kind' meant that it took us far too long to cotton on to the implications of allowing 'the most marginalised group in society' to dominate inclusivity to the exclusion of women.

Stonewall, and its kite marks held sway for so long that people working in the public sector had to endure kafkaesque diktats about pronouns and 'gender'. I am young enough to have been working when that was going on, and it was insane.

Finally, statistics on this subject (and the numerous ones that used to rely on a simple definition of sex as male or female) are always going to be inaccurate. People move between identifying as different 'genders', and nobody is very sure what any of it means anyway. There is no register of transpeople (understandably and rightly), so nobody has any idea of how 'tiny and marginalised' they are as a group, even if we knew how 'tiny' and 'marginalised' are being defined, and how (and against which) other groups they are being compared.

In any case, self-id for demographic data has to be treated with care, particularly if it is to be used quantitatively. Not everyone will be comfortable with declaring 'gender-id' on an official form, so it is possible that those who do are in a particular subset.

Iam64 Mon 11-May-26 08:18:05

Wyllow, I knew the two men in the women’s hospital toilet were men because it was obvious. The smirk from one who responded “I’m a woman” was in truth, rather threatening. I’ve worked with abusive males and find despite long happy retirement, I still know if I’m in their presence.

Interesting that my account, my feelings are so easily dismissed . “How did you know “. I’ve lived 77 years and learned a thing or two.

Cossy Mon 11-May-26 08:11:32

Galaxy

I think gender is a social contract and frequently damaging for men and women, it is mostly a list of stereotypes. Peopke of course can present how they like, this has no impact on how single sex spaces should be organised.

👏👏👏👏👏

Cossy Mon 11-May-26 08:10:29

Cardamom

^Now, that doesn't mean that the staff couldn't be sensitive in dealing with that person..^

Be sensitive to the convicted paedophile from a high-security men's prison, who was 6 feet tall, appeared masculine, and had to be shackled by two prison officers because he was so violent??? He should have been treated with as much sensitivity, dignity, respect and kindness as he afforded the children he sexually assaulted. Added to that, he is a racist, violent, misogynistic thug. And you seriously think he should have been treated sensitively because he thinks he's a laydeee now? gringringrin

Whilst I think your tone is unbelievably disrespectful, I personally wouldn’t treat any one who committed crimes such as those committed by said person, with respect, it wouldn’t matter to me if he was a he/she/they, gay, trans or straight, “they” are a despicable disgusting vile excuse of a human being and deserve nothing!