Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

Oh, and I absolutely do object to men and boys joining women's organisations. There are women who for various reasons don't want to be in situations where men are present, and there are plenty of organisations that cater for mixed sex groups.

I would not have been at all happy for my 13 year old daughter to go to Guide camp with boys in the tent, and if Gary decided to call himself Gladys it would not have made any difference to my objections.

"Oh, and maybe respect that, when a woman says that she doesn't want to have sex with a biological male because, actually she's a lesbian; she shouldn't be harassed and publicly humiliated just because she doesn't want any "lady dick"."

This shouldn't even be a "trans" issue. Every woman should be respected for not wanting to have sex with another individual for whatever reason.

Every man too!

I feel exactly the same.
My grandson's friends were angry that a lad won "girl of the year" or something at their prom.

I am with Doodledog on this

Me too.

I don't vote on this issue.
I do vote on anti-racism though, as people born with a certain skin colour cannot choose to be any other than they are.
The same for people with disabilities.
I think the numbers affecting the general population subject to transgender issues are relatively low.
Trans people already have the rights non-trans people have under law but the focus tends to be on sport and which toilet/changing room issues they should have.
I just don't see why other people in the population should be over-concerned about these matters.
Use separate chaging rooms and toilets- most public or even private toilets are non-specific these days anyway.
Live and let live is my philosophy- but if you commit a crime you have to bear the consequences of being your birth gender- the answer is not to break the law and this applies to everyone.
Maybe I'm missing the point here- discrimination is wrong, but some people don't get to make those choices so yes, my focus would be on them rather than those who choose to mark themselves as 'other.'
We're all the same under the skin, with the same needs and wants- we shouldn't make ourselves 'different' and then harp on about it.
Yes, you can shoot me too.

MissAdventure

I feel exactly the same.
My grandson's friends were angry that a lad won "girl of the year" or something at their prom.

😲🤬

can I suggest another view on this subject. Transpeople are people whose mental gender is different from their physical gender, surely then they should be able to live across both genders.

For women that is not a problem. I think all of us have at sometime or another known women who dressed and presented as men, usually in gay partnerships, we have accepted them for what they are in the life they live and treated them as men, at the same time as not batting an eyelid or treating them differently from other women when in the Ladies loo or in medical and other biologically female spaces.

The problem is, that for transwoman that is not true. Someone with a female mind, dressing and presenting as female, is almost entirely unacceptable in male spaces, whether loos, male groups, prisons or the like. They are in fact walking into danger, everytime they walk into a male space.

Surely what we should be doing is working is making men as accepting of transwomen as women are of trans en. It is trans women making the running in this fight, because once they come out as transwomen they are excluded from male life in a way transmen are not. Were men to be as accepting of transwomen as women are of transmen so that men born with a female mind in a male bdy could live between the two worlds as trans men do, much of the heat and point of this problem would go.

Quite a few of us are going to get shot!

I also Agree with keepingquiet.

Transpeople are people whose mental gender is different from their physical gender, surely then they should be able to live across both genders.
'Gender' is a societal concept. It is not possible for someone wo have different mental and physical genders. There are no such things. 'Gender' is about how society expects people of each sex to act - it shifts across cultures, time frames and history.

I couldn't care less what people wear, or how they arrange their lives. If a man wants to wear a pink dress and heels, crochet doilies and read chick lit, or a woman wants to wear boiler suits, drink pints and dig the roads, you won't get any argument from me. Who they have sex with doesn't interest me either. Those things are cliched examples of gender expectations in 21st century Britain. Styles of dress, hobbies and occupations have all varied over the years. Men in powdered wigs and heels were fashionable in the 18th century, and women worked in mines in the 19th. Men still knit in fishing communities. Gender roles are not genetic or fixed.

Most children enjoy climbing - it's just that until recently girls were discouraged from doing so. Enjoying 'boys' games just means enjoying the things that others have said are not for you. It does not make you any different from any other child. Many girls want to be boys - maybe moreso in the past - as it dawns on them that it's a man's world, and much harder for women to succeed.

I agree that we should make it easier for people to stop conforming to gender roles, but that does not mean accepting men as women or vice versa. The two things are very different.

The reason this has to be discussed at all is because people don't ave common sense

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

LizzieDrip

LaCrepescule

It’s honestly not something I give headspace to. Far more important issues to concern myself with. I’ll join you in the firing squad Casdon.

Put me in there too.

And me. There does seem an excessive amount of post space given to this issue, which I do find a tad boring. I would be more more willing to accept it as a serious issue, if the % of crime Re transgender impinging on single sex space was even measurable, but it is so tiny as to be non-measurable against crime in general.

I work for a large organisation and even where I work which is extremely old, there are still gender neutral toilets and changing spaces. Where there isn't, those people that were assigned a different gender at birth now (as of recently) have to use access toilets/changing (ie disabled) This is a massive U turn as before we were just to accept Dave was now Sharon even if Dave was still wearing a tie.

Common sense wasn't working

It is't about being kind. We all have the capacity to be kind and understanding. It is about being sensible and open minded

JaneJudge, I don't understand. Are you saying there were gender neutral toilets and changing spaces, which everybody could use? Didn't these spaces have cubicles? I've worked in many places, where toilets are gender neutral (ie can be used by everybody) but they have individual doors. When I go to the gym/swimming pool, there's only one big changing room (gender neutral), but there are individual lockable changing rooms.

I do vote on anti-racism though, as people born with a certain skin colour cannot choose to be any other than they are.

This raises an interesting question: in May 2024, a prisoner was brought to Epsom & St Helier hospital for treatment. He was serving a lengthy prison sentence for child sex offences and paedophilia and had frequently displayed violence towards both male and female prison staff. On the day that he presented at the hospital, he was attended to by an experienced black nurse called Jennifer Melle. Ms Melle hadn't been informed that the patient "identified as female" and so addressed him, very politely as "Mr". What followed was a violent tirade of abuse towards the nurse; he used foul racist language towards her, called her the N word several times and made derogatory references to the cross hanging on a chain around her neck and her religion. He faced no charges and was simply escorted back to prison. The nurse was suspended, given a final written warning and reported to the NMC for failing to use the "correct pronouns".

Remind me again.....what were you saying about respect?

they are individual lockable toilets/changing rooms like you've described

there are traditional communal toilets too in the older buildings

Idealistically everywhere would have gender neutral toilets/changing. That would be one issue solved, at least

So is the problem with the "traditional" toilets because trans people want to use facilities of their chosen sex?

Is that really a problem for women because I don't think I have ever known a women's toilet which doesn't have separate cubicles and doors? I can see it could be an issue with communal changing rooms, where people need to strip down to their undies. To be honest, I would have thought the people most threatened would be straight males, in case there are any predatory gay males around.

Babies are usually typically born with female or male genitalia but only around 98.2-98.3% are.

A small percentage, about 1.7%, are born "intersex" that is with atypical genitalia where external genitalia appear mixed or not clearly developed. This can cause a challenge as to which sex to register the birth. Later the person may undergo surgery to correct this. They may also wish to identify as the opposite sex to that originally registered at birth.

It is worth noting this 1.7% figure of interest sex births and the 0.54% figure of the population that identifies as transgender.

There are also birth variations- ie Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, AIS, where the baby is born with XY chromosomes but develop entirely female external genitalia. Female sex may be registered at birth, yet the chromosome make up

Census facts- According to the 2021 last Census, 262,000 people, that is 0.54% of the population aged 16 or over, identified as having a gender identity different from their sex registered at birth. The ONS considers this was an over estimation because of bias in the results, noting that some individuals with a lower proficiency of English may have mistakenly answered that they were trans as a result of misunderstanding of the question wording.

Of that 0.54% 0.10% identified as a trans woman, a very low proportion of the population.

It is not immutable fact that 100% of babies are born with typical male or female genitialia, though around 98.3% are.

We can as a society accommodate appropriate toilet and changing facilities for this small proportion of transgender people I would suggest.

Society needs to treat intersex and AIS born babies as they would treat any other human baby no matter what sex they were register at birth. As people's medical history is private and confidential, a proportion of those 1.7% of babies born intersex, and those born with AIS may now identify as transgender and not their registered birth sex.

Intersex is a whole different ballgame, if you'll pardon my pun.

Gender neutral changing rooms would mean that women would have to take their clothes off with men in the room, not all women are happy with that, and I do think that their feelings are just as important as those of the women that don't mind.

MissAdventure

Intersex is a whole different ballgame, if you'll pardon my pun.

That is true. Intersex people should not be used like this. It is most unfair.

I absolutely and most certainly would not happily strip down in front of anyone, let alone someone who is a male, and total stranger.