Another appalling attack

understanding why many Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in the wider world hate Jews, Israel, Zionism doesn’t justify the actions of 7 0ctober

I’m not suggesting history is irrelevant. Anti semitism led to the pogroms, the Holocaust and the state of Israel.

Hatred is such a dangerous emotion, especially when applied to “Jews” as in your example of people to hate

Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion
And nice to read some very thought-provoking comments on this thread, in the main, Cossy. Far better than the fighting and sometimes sneering at each other, or we end up no better than those seeking to divide.

Chocolatelovinggran

Indeed, thank you Oreo. Holocaust denial seems particularly difficult to justify, as there is evidence available - one of my daughters visited Aushwitz when she was travelling, and I took my family to visit Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam.
WW2 is on the curriculum in the last year of primary school ( our children read " When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit")
and is in every secondary school history programme of study, I think.
The teachers of any young people with such views will be utterly horrified.

I agree, it's very helpful to visit these sites where tragedies took place, and to reflect. The Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam is interesting too.

Yes, the Holocaust can be touched on at KS2 Year 6, but is not legally mandatory in the national curriculum until KS3 Year 9 I think at secondary school. I taught 10 - 11 year olds until covid hit, and always consulted parents as to their wishes. Most of the time, I emphasised how prejudice and discrimination can cause untold misery, and I related this to the school's values of kindness and diversity.
Important lessons in a historical sense.

No, not to hide.

What a sad, limited world that would be, banned self expression, banned from the chance to know, understand, and both being able to both appreciate and critique difference.

Putting aside the morality of it, hiding religion won't work, I know for example that the woman across the road is a methodist, I know the woman who runs the playgroup is a Catholic, etc.
People shouldn't and can't hide theor religion.

Just to add my tuppence to a very serious discussion, yes, the Jewish communities should absolutely be able to dress how they like, attend their synagogues when they wish and go about their daily lives without fear.

In terms of the holocaust, beside those total ignorant people who simply wish to deny it existed or bury it, it happened!

Whilst the Jewish communities were far far more greatly targeted and killed, it must be remembered 500,000 non-jews were also murdered in the concentration camps, none of those murdered, including Jews, fitted into Hitler’s new world.

Caleo

Would it not be more sensible for religious people of all faiths to stop wearing ostentatiously religious clothing.

Why go about in public wearing uniforms that declare which side one is on. Religions are divisive enough without flaunting the differences.

Why? Why should anyone “disguise” their faith?

Indeed, thank you Oreo. Holocaust denial seems particularly difficult to justify, as there is evidence available - one of my daughters visited Aushwitz when she was travelling, and I took my family to visit Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam.
WW2 is on the curriculum in the last year of primary school ( our children read " When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit")
and is in every secondary school history programme of study, I think.
The teachers of any young people with such views will be utterly horrified.

Iam64

‘Understanding the context ‘ of 7 October feels horrifically similar to blame attached to Jewish people fleeing their homes in the face of pogroms. We still hear offensive comments now to explain the ‘context of anti semitism’ , those tropes about the Jews controlling the media, the banks etc
It’s as long as history and getting worse. Of course a more recent one is the belief (misbelief) that “the Jews” were responsible for 9/11. I’ve heard this on a number of occasions from young Muslim men

I disagree with you. Understanding any history means understanding context. Sometimes that context leads to an understanding we don't like, but history should never be airbrushed. Rewriting history is one of the first things authoritarian regimes do. History itself isn't judgmental, which most people interpreting it are.

Understanding why many Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in the wider world hate Jews, Israel or Zionism doesn't justify the actions of 7 October.

sixandahalf

" Mental health services" What a joke. You are on your own.

He was in supported housing though, so he was obviously somebody with a complex history aand a violent past, and should have been under closer supervision than the average person with mental health issues. That’s what I was alluding to when I said that investigation into those aspects is important

Erm..and?

Corbyn parents took part in Cable street riots

Oreo

Chocolatelovinggran

Golders Green seemed a very safe space when my daughter lived there years ago whilst working in London, so I am saddened to hear how unsafe it has become.
Oreo, do you have data on the percentage of young people who are Holocaust deniers?
I am aware of, and astonished by, the existence of such people, but most seem older folk, with an agenda of their own.
My understanding is that all pupils learn about the Holocaust: it is part of the history curriculum in year 6, and is revisited in secondary school.

No, just read it on the online BBC news this morning, will try and find out more about the survey if I can.

Having scoured the online news sources there’s nothing to say which poll this figure comes from, it was said in the interview with Mark Rowley in today’s papers.
Other polls conducted in the UK which you can google, even if it’s just the AI overview are just too depressing on this subject to read, the percentages of people thinking the Holocaust is a myth or total exaggeration ☹️

The significance of history is important of course. As the Good Friday Agreement shows, all sides need to want peace and be prepared to put history less centre stage and the present and future at its heart

I would never subscribe to that: it lies clearly the hands of terrorists. Nor any of those tropes. (as surely you know, Iam, goodness me, I have explained my family history of supporting refugees post WW2 and fighting in Cable Street times enough, never mind friendships of my parents and at uni where I knew Julia Neuberger with great love and respect as she was a powerful force at 20!)

Yes, the history of anti semitism is centuries old, and anti-semitic tropes from many cultures including our own of course.

But to understand current events one does have to trace back at least to the formation of the Israeli State and the conflicting and troubled state the area was in at the time when we Brits were in power.

Chocolatelovinggran

Golders Green seemed a very safe space when my daughter lived there years ago whilst working in London, so I am saddened to hear how unsafe it has become.
Oreo, do you have data on the percentage of young people who are Holocaust deniers?
I am aware of, and astonished by, the existence of such people, but most seem older folk, with an agenda of their own.
My understanding is that all pupils learn about the Holocaust: it is part of the history curriculum in year 6, and is revisited in secondary school.

No, just read it on the online BBC news this morning, will try and find out more about the survey if I can.

‘Understanding the context ‘ of 7 October feels horrifically similar to blame attached to Jewish people fleeing their homes in the face of pogroms. We still hear offensive comments now to explain the ‘context of anti semitism’ , those tropes about the Jews controlling the media, the banks etc
It’s as long as history and getting worse. Of course a more recent one is the belief (misbelief) that “the Jews” were responsible for 9/11. I’ve heard this on a number of occasions from young Muslim men

Understand the context is
patronising
belittles other people and situations
Assumes people are idiots
Assumes people forget
reeks of, others are wrong.
reeks of "two wrongs do indeed make a right".

Golders Green seemed a very safe space when my daughter lived there years ago whilst working in London, so I am saddened to hear how unsafe it has become.
Oreo, do you have data on the percentage of young people who are Holocaust deniers?
I am aware of, and astonished by, the existence of such people, but most seem older folk, with an agenda of their own.
My understanding is that all pupils learn about the Holocaust: it is part of the history curriculum in year 6, and is revisited in secondary school.

Galaxy

The progressives will be the end of us.

I fear we are well down that road already.🤬

Actually the Police can ban marches and gatherings under certain circumstances.

love0c

Wyllow3 'understand the context'???? it is like you are giving justification!!!!???? I am sickened by your comment!

Well used to reading similar stuff online Love0c that sort of thing is always presented as an explanation/ justification.

We don’t….you remind us of it often enough.
It’s used tho, by many who seek to minimise the event of October 7th, which wasn’t the usual missiles/ car bombs/ cafe bombs by Palestinian activists and hamas members, but a wholesale slaughter of mainly sleeping Israelis who were unarmed.Over a thousand people, think of that! An unprovoked murderous sickening spree.Add to that the 200 hostages who were mainly murdered later.

love0c

Wyllow3 'understand the context'???? it is like you are giving justification!!!!???? I am sickened by your comment!

Understanding the context would mean not making claims such as the conflict starting with the Hamas attack, which is just ludicrous. Understanding the context does not mean justifying what happened on 7 October.

Explaining and justifying are not the same thing.

I am not justifying.
I am explaining a context necessary to understand all the particular horrors a long the way in a long, long, history.

As for the meaning of that particular phrase, I could equally have said but used a common place term to express it.

"By all means continue to highlight, remind us about October 7th.

I have not problem with being reminded off it, but I do find that ignoring the history and context of that day very puzzling, it was not an isolated incident.

Why do people have trouble with looking at the context?