Southport killings inquiry verdict.

MartavTaurus

I agree eazybee.
IF a child was sat in my office and told me he had brought a knife into school to use it, AND the parents didn't even flinch on hearing this, alarm bells would ring very loudly. Enough evidence for me to act big time in the appropriate way.

I agree. The child AND the parents should have been taken into custody.

Like most here, I’m retired. I’m aware the threshold for care proceedings and other statutory interventions has grown to what to me is dangerous levels. Despite this, we have growing numbers of looked after children.

I wonder at the culture in some of the agencies involved here, a psychiatrist pulling out as a result of ARz’s father’s aggression would be extremely unusual. In forty years, not something I encountered

I don’t think alleged bullying (of AR at school or his bullying of his parents) or autism are anywhere near a reason not to further question the parents of AR.

I have no sympathies for his parents who enabled him to purchase weapons, and paid for said weapons.

My thoughts and prayers will always be with his victims and their family and friends.

I agree eazybee.
IF a child was sat in my office and told me he had brought a knife into school to use it, AND the parents didn't even flinch on hearing this, alarm bells would ring very loudly. Enough evidence for me to act big time in the appropriate way.

As eazybee says, good communication between relevant agencies and effective safeguarding conferences. Staff in schools, social work etc are familiar with obstructive, uncooperative, challenging and threatening parents. It s usually possible to engage with them. I’ll be interested to see if the judge points out the Children Act could and imo should have been used here

What can you do?
You record it and refer it to a higher authority.
This is the evidence that comes out at case conferences; involvement from nineteen agencies including police, social services, health, school etc; similar reports from all; hostile, uncooperative attitude of parents/family. (Not AR case but personal experience; the children involved were eventually removed from parents and adopted or fostered.) But it took a long time and in the concern in this case was neglect, threats of suicide, disappearance, not violence.

I wouldn't surprise me if he was bullied when he was at main stream school - and that can leave scars which don't heal. It's possible he thought he was being bullied, even at the special school, especially if paranoia was involved.

Nevertheless, that's not the main issue. I agree with others that the parents behaved irresponsibly. Like others, I have some sympathy for the brother.

I was thinking of the bullying too. I can imagine AR being bullied

The facts are as laid out in the conclusions of the Inquiry.
Axel Rudakubana claimed he was bullied at school but the school disputed that. Of course, we know that can happen but in this case the class numbers were very small and the school said there was no evidence of him being bullied. He had been excluded from one school and staff at Acorns School said they were all closely monitored.

Imagined scenarios do not help; the facts of this case are what is important.

MartavTaurus

The testimonies from multiple school staff members should be enough to tell it as it was. I believe all of them encountered problems with the parents' attitude.

But you can't just act because parents are rude and/or have a bad attitude?

What could they do?

A person receiving weapons into their home that their child ordered can act.

The testimonies from multiple school staff members should be enough to tell it as it was. I believe all of them encountered problems with the parents' attitude.

I agree eazybee

eazybee

Absolutely right, Iam64.
Sir Adrian Fulford's account is extremely thorough, forensic I would say, written by a man with a vast amount of experience and the ability to think and write impartially. He wrote of "the complete abandonment of responsibility" by AR's parents as being "utterly unconscionable" and recommended a new legal duty for all parents to report their children's criminality to the authorities. It is clear that the parents are the people most responsible for their son's murderous behaviour and his actions could have been prevented had they prevented him from building his arsenal of weapons and been honest with the support authorities.

Agree.

Absolutely right, Iam64.
Sir Adrian Fulford's account is extremely thorough, forensic I would say, written by a man with a vast amount of experience and the ability to think and write impartially. He wrote of "the complete abandonment of responsibility" by AR's parents as being "utterly unconscionable" and recommended a new legal duty for all parents to report their children's criminality to the authorities. It is clear that the parents are the people most responsible for their son's murderous behaviour and his actions could have been prevented had they prevented him from building his arsenal of weapons and been honest with the support authorities.

Galaxy, same here. The inquiry rightly criticises some professionals. I don’t know enough to defend or evaluate the failings. I do know how difficult it is to help support families who can’t or more often won’t, engage in difficult work towards change.
I remain convinced care proceedings were needed here

I have actually worked with hundreds of complex children, I do actually know how hard it is, I have also witnessed aggressive behaviour from parents, sometimes in response to despair and frustration but sometimes because aggression is a pattern in families.

Thank you Iam64, I have typed a number of posts and then stopped because it seemed futile. At least one professional withdrew their service ( psychiatrist) because of the aggressive behaviour of the father. As iam64 mentions the information they gave to the inquiry ( after the worst has happened) was deemed unreliable.
Many of the views here are actually similar to what led to the failings.

The inquiry to date has been thorough and forensic. He was not bullied. His parents did not cooperate with agencies. They lied. The signed for knives and other dangerous items he’d bought on Amazon. He used his father’s name and dob in order to order items his age would have prevented. Presumably, a credit card was linked to his Amazon account.
The inquiry criticised these parents and I’ve seen no evidence suggesting that was anything other than accurate, fair and balanced.
It’s interesting that posters sympathising appear not to have read the inquiry”s conclusions. Again, I’m not defending the failings of various agencies for dreadful practice but these parents share some responsibility.
Being bullied and frightened by your teenager, one yiu know is collecting knives that you leave with him doesn’t excuse you from responsibility when he carries out a murderous attack. It seems they were unreliable witnesses to the inquiry.

Basgetti terribly sorry to hear your experiences.

I can't imagine what was in the parents' minds. Where did they think it would end? Why did they permit weapons to be brought into the home.

Very sad indeed, all of it.

Oreo

Just to add, I feel sorry for everyone, the children and their families along with AR’s family.

I agree. There are no winners here.

Bullies often become isolated at school.
I would imagine going through the Headteacher's mind would be the fear that this isolation might lead to his being radicalised.

I was thinking of the bullying too. I can imagine AR being bullied - small, not confident, and there is a strong likelihood some of the bullying was racist too. Hence AR refusing schools (rightly or wrongly, it was what he feared when younger).

So what does a sick young mind do when bullied and feeling no way out? Turns to violent fantasies and perhaps revenge fantasies, and is very likely to be manipulative with authorities as well as parents.
Its harder to deal with young people like AR than some making out.

But one cant get away from the fact that the parents should have reported him

But also it occurs one reason for the secrecy for them is of course the other brother, who does not deserve exposure as he tried to help

Just to add, I feel sorry for everyone, the children and their families along with AR’s family.

Maybe AR was being bullied and the school either didn’t or couldn’t resolve things?
What action could the parents take, it wouldn’t have changed their son.
We expect the experts to give answers and help in a case like this, I have read of parents who contemplate suicide as life is so bad for them.
The parents maybe could have done better but in the end with cases like this it’s usually down to the professionals that due to
Incompetence/lack of communication between depts/ accidental mistakes/ heavy workloads and so on bear the most accountability.Parents are sometimes left floundering in their wake.

My reading of this case was that the family sought help from multiple sources but were not prepared to work with them, they simply wanted solutions to their son's actions without having to take any action themselves.
Support from schools was offered but they did not work with them and accused them of allowing their son to be bullied. I have quoted what the judge said about listening to the schools who observe these difficult children over a period of time, and in the context of their peers. So many professionals see them only briefly in isolation and do not form a true picture of their behaviour.
I remember a case many years ago in the Midlands where a woman was found stabbed to death in her car, reported by a traumatised teenager. After an intensive investigation the teenager was arrested for the murder; he was obsessed by knives and had a collection at home; his mother knew about them and had covered for him; he had murdered this woman with intent.

I discovered a primary school child terrified by a fellow pupil threatening to use a knife, which was revealed in his school bag. His father accused me of planting it, which was confounded by the fact that the knife was part of his kitchen cutlery. Some parents will do anything to protect their child and they need to be exposed.

Iam64

I don’t know enough about AR/parents to call for them to be prosecuted. I believe they share responsibility for his actions by facilitating weapons and unchecked internet and especially by lying to agencies.
In the US some parents are prosecuted when their children do school shootings. I don’t see America as a country whose criminal justice system I’d want us to follow,

Did they facilitate weapons or did they just sign for what he had ordered online without knowing what was in the packages?
Many teenagers have unchecked access to the Internet even when they aren’t 17 year old threatening males.I guess what I’m saying is that without full knowledge of the facts it’s hard to blame the parents.