Matt Goodwin

Meandrogog 14.09- it's your view that the UK is a Christian country and therefore important christian values are upheld.

There are other UK citizens of other religions in this country to whom it is also important to uphold their religions values. Thus you have not persuaded me all the country agrees with your view as you have not presented any facts to support your view. It remains therefore merely a view, to which you are entitled. There are Reform prominent members, Yusef, Braverman and Zahawi that may not be Christian. I would be disappointed if you are unable to accept that all UK residents have the right to uphold their religious values even if not Christian.

Staying with the premise of the facts outlined in my post however, without deflection, which of the facts presented in my 14.09 post, 4th paragraph onwards do you not accept and why? Most if not all the facts are on public record for you to check if you are not already aware.

Maremia 14.22: 'Lefties are having a meltdown.' 😉
Don't think it's the Lovely Lefties who are feeling the heat. 😬"

I'm clam and not feeling a 'melt down' at all 🤷‍♀️ I'm also heartened by the humour the accused 'lefties' continue to display in the face of disparaging comments from right wing populist Matt Goodwin and Reform UK supporters- just because we present facts that go against right wing populist, anti immigrant rhetoric.

I agree that the right wing populist, Matt Goodwin believers are feeling the heat as they find it difficult or even impossible to provide facts to support the rhetoric. Deflection and disparagement is easier and after all the Reform way 😉

LemonJam

Meandrogog 14.09- it's your view that the UK is a Christian country and therefore important christian values are upheld.

There are other UK citizens of other religions in this country to whom it is also important to uphold their religions values. Thus you have not persuaded me all the country agrees with your view as you have not presented any facts to support your view. It remains therefore merely a view, to which you are entitled. There are Reform prominent members, Yusef, Braverman and Zahawi that may not be Christian. I would be disappointed if you are unable to accept that all UK residents have the right to uphold their religious values even if not Christian.

Staying with the premise of the facts outlined in my post however, without deflection, which of the facts presented in my 14.09 post, 4th paragraph onwards do you not accept and why? Most if not all the facts are on public record for you to check if you are not already aware.

There are also UK citizens who have no religion at all. Some of them are humanists. They don't object to anybody having a religion as long as it doesn't affect anybody else.

twaddle 14.43- I agree.

On the other hand:-

Dr Taj Hargey, a muslim and chair of the Oxford Initiative for British Islam as written an article in the Telegraph in support of the Conservative Party and Nigel Farage after they criticised a mass prayer session for Muslim men in Trafalgar Square.

Writing for The Telegraph, Dr Taj Hargey said he found the open-air worship on Monday, attended by hundreds of men, including Sir Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, “disturbing”.

He agreed with Nick Timothy, the shadow justice secretary, who described the event, organised by the Ramadan Tent Project, as an “act of domination and division” in an article for The Telegraph on Tuesday.

Mr Timothy prompted a backlash from the Left when he wrote: “To use [Trafalgar Square] as a stage for this act of domination and division is completely wrong, and it should never be allowed to happen again.”

He said the Reform UK leader – who called for a ban on Muslim street prayers on Thursday – was “absolutely right”.

He said: “For many moderate Muslims, the howls of outrage from Sir Keir Starmer and the Labour Party over these views would be laughable if not so serious.

“And so when these people seek to dominate our public spaces and spread their malign influence further still on our British way of life they must be called out. So bravo Nick Timothy and Nigel Farage for having the guts to take these people on. And shame on Keir Starmer for his cowardice.”

He added: “It is an act of betrayal to our liberal British values to embrace such extremists who hate the West. It is also a disservice to the vast majority of Muslims who just want to get on in the UK and make a good life for themselves and their families.”

"All Muslims are bad people, if it wasn't so offensive it would be comical"

Where in his book, does Matt Goodwin say that all Muslims are bad people??

sundowngirl 15.56-

The Telegraph unfortunately is behind a pay wall so unable to read the whole article. Dr Taj Hargey's seeks to ban public Muslim prayers and it "should never happen again" but I wonder if he seeks to ban public prayers for all religions in the UK or just for Muslims?

On the other hand, in the context of Timothy's right wing, anti immigrant, pro Christianity take on the Trafalgar Square event we can also consider a none politically partisan, Christian leader view on the matter. The Bishop of London's views are a bit more accessible and can be found reported on the Guardian website 20th March, not behind a pay wall:

The Bishop said 'there's nothing sinister about Muslim prayers in Trafalgar Square. As a Bishop, I reject the right's attacks on worship. At a time Britain has never felt more divided, we should draw on Christian values to reject hate and focus on what unites us."

On Remembrance Day- a stone's throw from Trafalgar Square, the Bishop of London leads a public Christian act of lamentation in the open air. In Leeds he said he had the "honour of leading a service alongside the Roman Catholic Dean of Leeds, accompanied by leaders from other faiths- Jewish, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim in a public open air service". Would Dr Taj Hargey seek to ban Christian public prayers or multi faith public prayers I wonder. Disturbing if that is his view point.

The Bishop of London said "Timothy's suggestion that the public Iftar event was part of an "Islamist playbook" seeking to replace Christianity is sufficiently irrational in its fear and scaremongering to make it definitive as an Islamic slur masquerading as public policy concern. But Islamophobia is not a Christian value or Christian virtue. Our call as Christians is to create room for those with whom we disagree but see them in their God-given dignity. Our call is neither to dominate or be dominated, but rather to seek the common good and to live in peace with our neighbour- and where we disagree to disagree well. The attempts on the political right to elide Islamophobia and Christian values stands starkly at odds with true practice of the Chsritian faith"

The Bishop also quoted Queen Elizabeth 11 and her speech at Lambeth Palace in 2012. The Queen said: "The concept of our established church is occasionally misunderstood and, I believe, commonly under appreciated. Its role is not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead the church has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country."

LemonJam

Meandrogog 14.09- it's your view that the UK is a Christian country and therefore important christian values are upheld.

There are other UK citizens of other religions in this country to whom it is also important to uphold their religions values. Thus you have not persuaded me all the country agrees with your view as you have not presented any facts to support your view. It remains therefore merely a view, to which you are entitled. There are Reform prominent members, Yusef, Braverman and Zahawi that may not be Christian. I would be disappointed if you are unable to accept that all UK residents have the right to uphold their religious values even if not Christian.

Staying with the premise of the facts outlined in my post however, without deflection, which of the facts presented in my 14.09 post, 4th paragraph onwards do you not accept and why? Most if not all the facts are on public record for you to check if you are not already aware.

The Church of England is the established, official Church in England (not Wales, Scotland or N Irelad).

So yes, England is a Christian country but, we hope is tolerant of other branches of Christianity and of other religions to.

Unfortunately, not all those of religious faith are tolerant as has been seen by attacks on Jewish people in this country recently.

Dr Taj H is known as an outspoken controversial figure. He has long stirred controversy amongst fellow muslims by condemning the burqua and demanding a new form of Islam. He ideas are not perceived to have gained much traction in the muslim community. In this context perhaps it's not a surprise that he's waded in to support the right wing views about muslim public prayer in Trafalgar Square and share them in the Telegraph.

He's a citizen of both the UK and South Africa and divides his time between the 2 countries. He is the president of the Cape Town Open Mosque ( 🤷‍♀️ ) which he founded despite virulent opposition from local clergy.

Allira- agreed. I much prefer the Bishop of London's Christian take on the matter and his Christian values of inclusivity and to reject hate and focus on what unties us- mirrored by Queen Elizabeth 11.

In 1994, Charles triggered controversy when he said he would be defender of faith rather than Defender of the Faith, in a desire to reflect Britain’s religious diversity. There were suggestions that the coronation oath might be altered.

In 2015, he clarified his position in an interview with BBC Radio 2, saying his views had been misinterpreted. He said: “As I tried to describe, I mind about the inclusion of other people’s faiths and their freedom to worship in this country. And it’s always seemed to me that, while at the same time being Defender of the Faith, you can also be protector of faiths.”

He pointed out that the Queen had said her role was “not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead, the Church [of England] has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country. I think in that sense she was confirming what I was really trying to say – perhaps not very well – all those years ago.”
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/09/king-charles-to-be-defender-of-the-faith-but-also-a-defender-of-faiths

James Cleverly, Nick Timothy's front bench Conservative Party colleague has publicly stated today he disagrees that public muslim prayers are an act of domination.

Condemnation appears to vastly outweigh those that agree with Timothy's views about public muslim prayer, and not just from centre, centre left or left wing parties but also from the Anglican Church and within his own right wing Conservative party.

And royalty!

Wow LemonJam you have got the bit between your teeth,
I just thought that it was interesting that a Muslim cleric, someone of the same religion, was critical of the mass display in Trafalgar Square.
I do find it disturbing that although they claim this was ‘inclusive’ the women are still segregated (I know this happens in the Jewish faith, but behind closed doors). This would seem out of place in a country that supposedly believes in equality.

In a country that supposedly believes in equality for all of its citizens, or just some?

I find it very sad that anyone sees men praying in a public place as a malign influence or an act of domination and division, yet it seems the very same people see flag waving supporters of someone like Tommy Robinson as a uniting force. What a strange world these people must live in.

Iftar prayers are often segregated by gender, particularly in traditional settings, mosques, or large-scale public events, where men typically pray in front and women in the back or in separate sections.

While not mandatory in all settings, this separation is a common practice for maintaining modesty and following traditional prayer protocols.

The reasons are obvious.

There were plenty of Muslim women at Trafalgar Square.

sundowngirl 17.32 "Wow LemonJam you have got the bit between your teeth, I just thought that it was interesting that a Muslim cleric, someone of the same religion, was critical of the mass display in Trafalgar Square."

Sure- do you wonder, as I do why Timothy got the bit between his teeth about Muslims public prayer in the first place 🤷‍♀️. Similarly, I just thought it was interesting to put forward the Bishop of London in response.

Graphite - what has segregation when praying to do with “maintaining modesty”?
Equality is for all. Women should not be treated any differently and if the men cannot control their emotions, that’s their problem

twaddle

LemonJam

Meandrogog 14.09- it's your view that the UK is a Christian country and therefore important christian values are upheld.

There are other UK citizens of other religions in this country to whom it is also important to uphold their religions values. Thus you have not persuaded me all the country agrees with your view as you have not presented any facts to support your view. It remains therefore merely a view, to which you are entitled. There are Reform prominent members, Yusef, Braverman and Zahawi that may not be Christian. I would be disappointed if you are unable to accept that all UK residents have the right to uphold their religious values even if not Christian.

Staying with the premise of the facts outlined in my post however, without deflection, which of the facts presented in my 14.09 post, 4th paragraph onwards do you not accept and why? Most if not all the facts are on public record for you to check if you are not already aware.

There are also UK citizens who have no religion at all. Some of them are humanists. They don't object to anybody having a religion as long as it doesn't affect anybody else.

I also agree with the important proviso that it doesnt affect anyone else

sundowngirl

On the other hand:-

Dr Taj Hargey, a muslim and chair of the Oxford Initiative for British Islam as written an article in the Telegraph in support of the Conservative Party and Nigel Farage after they criticised a mass prayer session for Muslim men in Trafalgar Square.

Writing for The Telegraph, Dr Taj Hargey said he found the open-air worship on Monday, attended by hundreds of men, including Sir Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, “disturbing”.

He agreed with Nick Timothy, the shadow justice secretary, who described the event, organised by the Ramadan Tent Project, as an “act of domination and division” in an article for The Telegraph on Tuesday.

Mr Timothy prompted a backlash from the Left when he wrote: “To use [Trafalgar Square] as a stage for this act of domination and division is completely wrong, and it should never be allowed to happen again.”

He said the Reform UK leader – who called for a ban on Muslim street prayers on Thursday – was “absolutely right”.

He said: “For many moderate Muslims, the howls of outrage from Sir Keir Starmer and the Labour Party over these views would be laughable if not so serious.

“And so when these people seek to dominate our public spaces and spread their malign influence further still on our British way of life they must be called out. So bravo Nick Timothy and Nigel Farage for having the guts to take these people on. And shame on Keir Starmer for his cowardice.”

He added: “It is an act of betrayal to our liberal British values to embrace such extremists who hate the West. It is also a disservice to the vast majority of Muslims who just want to get on in the UK and make a good life for themselves and their families.”

Yes absolutely agree. This was the article I read and agree with every word. Well done for pointing it out 👏👏👏👏👏

LemonJam

sundowngirl 15.56-

The Telegraph unfortunately is behind a pay wall so unable to read the whole article. Dr Taj Hargey's seeks to ban public Muslim prayers and it "should never happen again" but I wonder if he seeks to ban public prayers for all religions in the UK or just for Muslims?

On the other hand, in the context of Timothy's right wing, anti immigrant, pro Christianity take on the Trafalgar Square event we can also consider a none politically partisan, Christian leader view on the matter. The Bishop of London's views are a bit more accessible and can be found reported on the Guardian website 20th March, not behind a pay wall:

The Bishop said 'there's nothing sinister about Muslim prayers in Trafalgar Square. As a Bishop, I reject the right's attacks on worship. At a time Britain has never felt more divided, we should draw on Christian values to reject hate and focus on what unites us."

On Remembrance Day- a stone's throw from Trafalgar Square, the Bishop of London leads a public Christian act of lamentation in the open air. In Leeds he said he had the "honour of leading a service alongside the Roman Catholic Dean of Leeds, accompanied by leaders from other faiths- Jewish, Hindu, Sikh and Muslim in a public open air service". Would Dr Taj Hargey seek to ban Christian public prayers or multi faith public prayers I wonder. Disturbing if that is his view point.

The Bishop of London said "Timothy's suggestion that the public Iftar event was part of an "Islamist playbook" seeking to replace Christianity is sufficiently irrational in its fear and scaremongering to make it definitive as an Islamic slur masquerading as public policy concern. But Islamophobia is not a Christian value or Christian virtue. Our call as Christians is to create room for those with whom we disagree but see them in their God-given dignity. Our call is neither to dominate or be dominated, but rather to seek the common good and to live in peace with our neighbour- and where we disagree to disagree well. The attempts on the political right to elide Islamophobia and Christian values stands starkly at odds with true practice of the Chsritian faith"

The Bishop also quoted Queen Elizabeth 11 and her speech at Lambeth Palace in 2012. The Queen said: "The concept of our established church is occasionally misunderstood and, I believe, commonly under appreciated. Its role is not to defend Anglicanism to the exclusion of other religions. Instead the church has a duty to protect the free practice of all faiths in this country."

Absolutely reject the Bishops take on this.

Graphite

Iftar prayers are often segregated by gender, particularly in traditional settings, mosques, or large-scale public events, where men typically pray in front and women in the back or in separate sections.

While not mandatory in all settings, this separation is a common practice for maintaining modesty and following traditional prayer protocols.

The reasons are obvious.

There were plenty of Muslim women at Trafalgar Square.

Absolute rubbish, why are women at the back? We should all be equal and if you are supporting this practice it says everything about you.

twaddle

Why "should" we be a Christian country? I don't understand the logic.

There’s no should about it. This is a Christian country.
The King is the Head of the Church of England.

I would say that all public religious displays be banned tbh.
They can take place in churches, synagogues, temples and mosques.Or special venues, but not on the streets.