Isn't Epstein really "The Billionaire Problem"

MaizieD

*MOnica*.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TAXING BILLIONAIRES. So why do you keep going on about them?

I am talking about preventing them from becoming so wealthy in the first place.

Thats the point. You cannot stop them becoming billionaires because they will all have decamped to other more tax advantageous countries and become billionaires there.

All you will do is drive all those in this country with a high entrepereneurial drive into the arms of more welcoming countries, making us a country with no resident industry, only the subsidiaries of these successful foreign companies and their British (but not domiciled in the UK) owners.

We will become like so many countries like Bangladesh, Vietname, the home to the euivalent of garment manufacturers with their foreign owners opening and shutting factories to meet their central needs, except that for Bangladesh and Vietnam, this is a stage in their rise to more solid industry, the India route, for us it will be a stage on our way down towards becoming a backward under-capitalised under-invested country no longer able to afford a welfare state.

Your ideas however worthy will only work if every country in the world adapts them, and they certainly are not going to do that, other countries will just make hay from the companies founded by British entrperneurs leaving Britain.

Will the last one out , please turn off the light, Oh no, don't worry the bulb is broken and we cannot afford a new one.

I think that’s a pretty good assessment M0nica

Anything is achievable with a unified taxation system for the good of all but that's a dream, it's not just billionaires anyone with wealth can relocate to a low tax country. Celebrities and high earners do just that now.

Tax them on the way up - the UK could have high income or property tax, which means most goods are produced overseas, and any local startup is handicapped.

It's a dream give it up

Oh dear.

What is the source of billionaire's wealth?

Assuming that they start off in modest circumstances (I.e. it's not inherited) where does the money they accumulate come from?

I can see MaizieD’s point of view, extreme wealth can be an instrument for control and coercion. It could be an instrument for good, medical research, philanthropic support etc.,

I can also see it from the view of a business owner, who has worked for years to build up a company from an idea to a profitable SME.

When would the powers that be step in and say hang on you are making too much money you have to slow down your business now or you will become a billionaire.

Taxes on businesses registered in the U.K. are collected regularly with penalties for late payment.

It is the multi nationals with headquarters registered off-shore that will get round any new or existing tax legislation, they pay their specialised accounts ££££ to do so.

I cannot see a worldwide tax agreement in the offing any time soon…

The thing about SME's is that they don't create billionaires or even high figure millionaires, do they?

It seems to me that a lot of the differences between business owners, the fact that many are content with a comfortable living and fulfilling their entrepreneurial potential while others are driven solely by the desire to make more and more money might be accounted for by their innate psychological make up. While research is uncovering things like lack of empathy and an overwhelming desire for wealth for wealth's sake (pleonexia) one wonders how much of this is a result of accruing wealth and how much is innate.

I have no problem at all with business as such, with the creation of economic activity, with the selling and buying of goods and services.

I have a problem with the way that excessive wealth drains money from an economy thus impairing the real function of money, which is to enable economic activity.

I have a problem with the fact that the pursuit of personal enrichment by any means has an adverse effect on the people that person employs to attain those riches; when the benefit is all on the side of the employer who takes as much money as s/he possibly can from the enterprise (not only in excessive profits but also by tax avoidance) while keeping their employees on low pay and poor conditions of employment.

The employer/employee relationship is symbiotic; without the employer the employee has no paid employment, without the employees the employer has no product to sell. But recognising this and behaving fairly s requires a standard of morality which those in naked pursuit of wealth don't possess.

MaizieD

Oh dear.

What is the source of billionaire's wealth?

Assuming that they start off in modest circumstances (I.e. it's not inherited) where does the money they accumulate come from?

The money comes in several ways.
1) They have a good idea, and build up on it and manufacture it, and gradually expand their sales and production. Dyson is an obvious example of that. He, of course, did a runner and lived in Singapore. He has returned to this country as a Billionaire, too late for any tax ruses.

2) They go into the city and become master money manipulators, or possibly venture capitalists and become rather good at it, so that people follow them and are willing to invest in them, so they set their own investment company up. and they are as clever with their money as they are with other peoples. Crispian Odey falls into this group. The main moive of people like this is money . if they cannot do it here they will depart for the USA

3) Then there those who make it through massive approved corruption. This is the field that Russian Oligarchs, among others fall into. The not what you do but who you know brigade working with corrupt governments. I am sure Peter Mandelson's friend, Oleg Deripasky, falls into that category. You absolutely have absolutely no control over how these people get their money.

4)there are the fraudulent ways of making money. The money invested and growing by magic with smoke and mirrors, pnzi schemes and their like.

5)In there are US there was a woman called Elizabeth Holmes who set up a company called 'Theranos', which claimed that it had developed a machine to do blood tests using a pinprick of blood rather than a whole armful. Amazingly lots of bigtime experienced investors, millionairs and billionaires, fell for her scam. She is currently serving a prison sentence and has to repay about US$400 million to investors.

I am sure there other ways of becoming billionaires that others can add.

MaizieD

The thing about SME's is that they don't create billionaires or even high figure millionaires, do they?

It seems to me that a lot of the differences between business owners, the fact that many are content with a comfortable living and fulfilling their entrepreneurial potential while others are driven solely by the desire to make more and more money might be accounted for by their innate psychological make up. While research is uncovering things like lack of empathy and an overwhelming desire for wealth for wealth's sake (pleonexia) one wonders how much of this is a result of accruing wealth and how much is innate.

I have no problem at all with business as such, with the creation of economic activity, with the selling and buying of goods and services.

I have a problem with the way that excessive wealth drains money from an economy thus impairing the real function of money, which is to enable economic activity.

I have a problem with the fact that the pursuit of personal enrichment by any means has an adverse effect on the people that person employs to attain those riches; when the benefit is all on the side of the employer who takes as much money as s/he possibly can from the enterprise (not only in excessive profits but also by tax avoidance) while keeping their employees on low pay and poor conditions of employment.

The employer/employee relationship is symbiotic; without the employer the employee has no paid employment, without the employees the employer has no product to sell. But recognising this and behaving fairly s requires a standard of morality which those in naked pursuit of wealth don't possess.

Like you say, unless the wealth is inherited Billionaires start small like Jim Ratcliffe for example (as he seems to be in the news at the moment) end up living in Monaco with a company registered in Luxembourg paying minimal to no taxes.

Anyone who is comfortable will have money squirrelled away whether that be in ISA’s, pension funds, property etc.

Business owners want to be profitable and increase the wealth of themselves and the business.

I suppose it’s where the line is drawn, how many millions are folks allowed to accrue before they turn into billionaires 🤷‍♀️

That question and answer is far beyond my pay grade.

DaisyAnneReturns

Wealth creates monsters www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1vFgUi4frU

This is another from Barry Ferns and, as usual is looking at the socio and behavioural economics of inequality. If you are short of time these are the "chapters"

00:00 - Introduction: The Elephant in the Room
02:04 - Part One: Power Rewires the Brain
03:30 - Part Two: The Empathy Gap and Isolation
05:19 - Part Three: Moral Licensing
08:13 - Part Four: Structural Impunity
10:50 - Part Five: Manufacturing Vulnerability
12.54 - Part Six: The Epstein Economy
15:53 - Stand-up Comedy Relief

Time to teach Noblesse Oblige.

AI Overview
Noblesse oblige (French for "nobility obliges") is the concept that high rank, wealth, or power entails a responsibility to act with generosity, honor, and social duty toward the less fortunate. Originating from the aristocracy, it implies that privilege must be earned through responsible behavior, protecting the weak, and public service.

MaizieD-"I have a problem with the fact that the pursuit of personal enrichment by any means has an adverse effect on the people that person employs to attain those riches; when the benefit is all on the side of the employer who takes as much money as s/he possibly can from the enterprise (not only in excessive profits but also by tax avoidance) while keeping their employees on low pay and poor conditions of employment.

The employer/employee relationship is symbiotic; without the employer the employee has no paid employment, without the employees the employer has no product to sell. But recognising this and behaving fairly s requires a standard of morality which those in naked pursuit of wealth don't possess"

This is typified by Jim Radcliffe, worth estimated 17 billion, resides in Monaco tax and avoids the UK tax regime entirely by departing UK to live in a tax haven. He will also pay no UK inheritance tax on any property in UK etc. His UK low paid employees may be claiming UC. Radcliffe has already secured UK state and EU funding to help his business empire stay afloat (and increase his profits and personal UK untaxed wealth) is currently seeking more UK state funding to continue to keep his companies afloat and enrich himself further. Does your ideology stoop this happening? What changes would you advocate to prevent this happening? Or it it more likely the case as David49 suggests that only a unified tax regime for eat good of all will achieve this and thats a pipe dream?

Wrong again Maizie, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs all started with nothing but a good idea and built their businesses from scratch.

Making money is easy, hanging on to it is the difficult side of business, it's not even about making your first million. It's about having a good idea and convincing others to lend money to you, then double up every year or two.

I think the government need to bring SME's into the conversation more often, Maizie. They are part of the "working people". You then have those who live month to month will little or nothing to fall back on plus those being supported by the social contract with the state. They are the "financially precarious or economically insecure" and finally the "high-net-worth individuals"

We use so many names for groups that people often see themselves in the wrong one. There are other names but whatever the government use they should offer a definitions and then use them - with the definition - until it is plain to everyone.

The government is well aware of the importance of SMEs what most don't realize is that a private company can have wealth well into the £10s of millions. It's all tied up in buildings machinery and stock They might employ 100 workers they do not have spare cash to pay extra tax, they certainly gave to be very competitive with product pricing, whatever surplus cash goes into modernization to keep up with the opposition.

Maizie All businesses start as SMEs and grow. As David49 sats Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, even Epstein started from nothing and built the companyup.

The other uestion I would ask is we talk only about the millionaires/billionaures who hit the news, but in fact many very wealthy people do give considerable sum of money away. They set up charitable foundations. A famous one to do that is Bill Gates.

Look at Warren Buffett, still living in Omaha and known for his frugal life. 99% of his huge fortune is being donated to charity through Bill Gates' charitable foundation.

Does anyone know he name of the man who established ebay? Probably not, but he has pledged to give away most of his wealth in his lifetime and has set up several non-profit organisation to help do so.

Gates, Buffett, Pierre Omidyar (he dreamed up ebay) and many very rich people are giving their fortunes away, but of course we do not hear about the Omidyars and other givers because they are not in the media for extravagent living, screwing the poor or exploiting the vulnerable. They are just getting on with their lives.

It's probable that there are no more abusers in the high income group than any other group, certainly there is plenty of abuse in the sex work industry.

It's just that celebrities get much more media attention, they are evil whatever their wealth

GG13 said

Taxes on businesses registered in the U.K. are collected regularly with penalties for late payment

Well, Im sorry, but reporting on the ‘tax gap’ in 2025, HMRC said that small businesses account for 40% of unpaid corporation tax. The value of the missing tax is estimated to be £,15 billion.

The total tax gap was estimated to be in the region of £46 billion.

taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/06/19/the-small-business-tax-crisis-40-of-tax-due-isnt-paid/

MaizieD

GG13 said

Taxes on businesses registered in the U.K. are collected regularly with penalties for late payment

Well, Im sorry, but reporting on the ‘tax gap’ in 2025, HMRC said that small businesses account for 40% of unpaid corporation tax. The value of the missing tax is estimated to be £,15 billion.

The total tax gap was estimated to be in the region of £46 billion.

taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/06/19/the-small-business-tax-crisis-40-of-tax-due-isnt-paid/

Yes the rules on setting up a company are too lax, it's easy to set up a company with deliberate intention of defrauding the revenue, not just corporation tax, VAT as well. Everything is rented no assets what so ever.
Trade for 2 yrs then declare company bankrupt, leaving unpaid tax and bank loans, it's very difficult to convict company directors of fraud. 3 out of 4 new companies fail within 3 yrs, it's all too easy.

The other drain on revenue is the black economy, individuals who pay no tax, often selling illegal products, or services for cash

There was a proposal in the EU to change how the rich were taxed.
It has been claimed that BREXIT was manufactured because of this 'threat'.

Maremia

There was a proposal in the EU to change how the rich were taxed.
It has been claimed that BREXIT was manufactured because of this 'threat'.

Has the EU implemented their tax proposal since the U.K. has left the EU?

MaizieD

GG13 said

Taxes on businesses registered in the U.K. are collected regularly with penalties for late payment

Well, Im sorry, but reporting on the ‘tax gap’ in 2025, HMRC said that small businesses account for 40% of unpaid corporation tax. The value of the missing tax is estimated to be £,15 billion.

The total tax gap was estimated to be in the region of £46 billion.

taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/06/19/the-small-business-tax-crisis-40-of-tax-due-isnt-paid/

What that report doesn’t say is why the SME’s haven’t paid the tax/es due.

Is it because they have gone into liquidation due to the current trading climate, or is it deliberate winding up of the business in order to avoid paying due taxes and all other financial obligations?

Two entirely different things.

Sorry GG13 I have no idea. Since we left the EU, the topic disappeared from our MSM.
Google might help you with that.

Epstein and dumb clucks like Victoria Hervey - see today’s Telegraph - mean there’ll be no end to this sort of behaviour 🫤👍☘️

Maremia

Sorry GG13 I have no idea. Since we left the EU, the topic disappeared from our MSM.
Google might help you with that.

One of the reasons for Brexit was the origin of dodgy investments, invested in London, many/most of which were from Russia, oligarchs, moving to the UK etc.
That was all overshadowed by Ukraine sanctions, so the whole topic went off the agenda

David49

MaizieD

GG13 said

Taxes on businesses registered in the U.K. are collected regularly with penalties for late payment

Well, Im sorry, but reporting on the ‘tax gap’ in 2025, HMRC said that small businesses account for 40% of unpaid corporation tax. The value of the missing tax is estimated to be £,15 billion.

The total tax gap was estimated to be in the region of £46 billion.

taxpolicy.org.uk/2025/06/19/the-small-business-tax-crisis-40-of-tax-due-isnt-paid/

Yes the rules on setting up a company are too lax, it's easy to set up a company with deliberate intention of defrauding the revenue, not just corporation tax, VAT as well. Everything is rented no assets what so ever.
Trade for 2 yrs then declare company bankrupt, leaving unpaid tax and bank loans, it's very difficult to convict company directors of fraud. 3 out of 4 new companies fail within 3 yrs, it's all too easy.

The other drain on revenue is the black economy, individuals who pay no tax, often selling illegal products, or services for cash

Yup. Then start up another company.

Phoenix companies

www.gov.uk/government/publications/phoenix-companies-and-the-role-of-the-insolvency-service/phoenix-companies-and-the-role-of-the-insolvency-service

Unfortunately MaizieD going belly up and restarting with different family members as directors/owners is a common occurrence.

No Government has taken steps to prevent this to my knowledge.