Why do things keep getting worse?

Oh, interesting.

Even though children have to remain in education or training until 18.

Apparently the official UK definition of 'working age' is 16 - 64.

That's the definition that the census statistics use.

Ps nanna8 I'm sure another poster will be along to correct me shortly so watch this thread. 🙂

nanna8

What is working age, I am wondering. 15 plus, 18 plus, 21 plus? Up to 60,65,70,75 ? Probably makes a difference to the figures.

Presumably from age of 24 if not in education or training, when they are known as NEETS - Not in Education, Employment or Training, until retirement age which is 66 at the moment, rising to 67 then 68 by 2046.

A lot could happen between now and 2046, including older people dying of exhaustion because they are forced to carry on working instead of retiring earlier thus providing employment opportunities for younger people.

David49

“Stage 3: The government increasingly runs out of resources as well. The government too, becomes massively in debt to the rich. (This seems to be roughly where we are now).”

The UK stopped exploiting its own resources decades ago, importing labour, fuel, commodities, food, especially technology. We could do far more from our own resources but we choose not to.
Let’s start with 25% of the working age population being economically inactive

If you’re talking of physical resources, David Britain never had very much to exploit.

You surely can’t have forgotten that for the best part of 200 years it exploited the resources of many other countries under the banner of ‘Empire’, making a number of people inordinately wealthy and punching far, far above its weight as a small island off the coast of Europe.

What is working age, I am wondering. 15 plus, 18 plus, 21 plus? Up to 60,65,70,75 ? Probably makes a difference to the figures.

David49

“Stage 3: The government increasingly runs out of resources as well. The government too, becomes massively in debt to the rich. (This seems to be roughly where we are now).”

The UK stopped exploiting its own resources decades ago, importing labour, fuel, commodities, food, especially technology. We could do far more from our own resources but we choose not to.
Let’s start with 25% of the working age population being economically inactive

Does that include students and parents of young children?

“Stage 3: The government increasingly runs out of resources as well. The government too, becomes massively in debt to the rich. (This seems to be roughly where we are now).”

The UK stopped exploiting its own resources decades ago, importing labour, fuel, commodities, food, especially technology. We could do far more from our own resources but we choose not to.
Let’s start with 25% of the working age population being economically inactive

Stage 3: The government increasingly runs out of resources as well. The government too, becomes massively in debt to the rich. (This seems to be roughly where we are now).

What foes Stevenson mean by the government running out of resources, DAR? What 'resources' would they be?

Babs03

@MaizieD thanks. I was expecting to be shot down in flames by someone with a much better grasp of how the economy works. I can only apply the logic of someone who is pee’ed off by the unfairness of it all. Sadly the ‘I’m alright Jack’ mentality of those who are comfortably off ensures that this rigged economy keeps on rewarding those with money whilst punishing those who have none.

I'm sure Maizie can give you links for Richard Murphy Babs03. I would suggest watching www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUKaB4P5Qns to see Gary Stevenson's podcast(?) from last March, after the Spring Statement, called "The Squeeze Out".

It includes a part on the history of Wealth Inequality were wealth seems to me to be defined as the ownership of tangible assets combined with available surplus funds.

One thing it certainly brings home is the post war change in the ownership of wealth which, except for a couple of small blips in the history of mankind, has never happened before and has never happened at all in some countries. Those having the "we could be comfortable on one wage/no women did work conversation may find this interesting against a much longer historical period.

He sums up at the end:
The Squeeze Out is why government(s) are destroying our living standards. It's why you and your family and kids will be increasingly poor.

There are five stages of the Squeeze Out:
Stage 1: The rich start to accumulate money, they drive asset prices up and they outcompete the working class resources and drive the working class into debt.
Stage 2: The working-class have run out of resources. The can no longer borrow any more. They can no longer spend any more. We get economic depression and a crisis. That's when the government has to step in.
Stage 3: The government increasingly runs out of resources as well. The government too, becomes massively in debt to the rich. (This seems to be roughly where we are now).
Stage 4: The government has no choice but to slowly eviscerate the middle-class. Eventually there is no wealth left other than that held by the rich, and the physical structure of society changes so that it only supports consumption for rich people. At this point almost everybody in the country lives in desperate poverty.
Stage 5: There are no weak hands left to be squeezed out. The rich own everything and the only way they can try to grow their wealth is by paying you to fight in their wars against each other.

He does close with some more uplifting comments about our "grandparents" (probably parents in many of our cases) fought for something better and got something better. Although it's very "forward to the past" he is worth listening to. He is convinced taxing the rich, rather than you or me or those just living on good incomes, is the only real way to "tax wealth not work".

1. Things are not as bad as they were in the 1920s simply because we have the NHS and the benefits system. But we have a lot of talking down social media.
2. We are used to a better standard of living that we cannot afford. Too much borrowing and "I want it now" instead of making do and saving up
3. World recession, not just us. Neil Kinnock actually saw that the country was not making enough/growing enough and living on people being paid for tertiary services and asked us to pay a little more income tax in the 90s, and selfish Thatcher's children voted for Tories. So now when we tighten our belts, it is those employed that way who lose their cafe/shop/luxury sales jobs.
4. Too many people complaining "they" should do something and less that we have to. Simple things like if we sweep our own street, pick up our own litter instead of complaining about our rates bill when the council have to spend picking up after us?

We are now in a big financial hole and it will take time to climb out of.

I agree fancythat, the majority of people have to pay their taxes or face the courts, and on top of the cost of living crisis it can be hard for many tax payers to make ends meet. So of course is totally wrong that the wealthy can avoid paying taxes, quite legally it seems.
In reality if you have lots of money you pay much less percentage wise than those who are struggling.
Am not sure in which universe this can be viewed as ok.

fancythat

varian

sazz1

I think Reform is our only hope for a better life here. We've had Conservative which was quite bad with so many strikes under Rishi and don't mention the havoc Liz Truss caused. Kier is really hopeless protests everywhere, mass illegal immigration, pensioners freezing without fuel allowance, private schools and uni fees up, tried to cut money for disabled, hundreds of businesses folding or leaving the UK and Rayner deputy PM doing Tax fraud. Also pensioners being arrested because they don't want Palestinian to suffer any longer.
Reform at least deserves a chance - can they really be any worse?

YES - much much worse _ just look at the USA where Fatage's hero Trump has destroyed the economy and reduced the country to the laughing stock of the world/

It is the richest Country.
By a wide margin.

Here you mentioned the economy.
Not individuals.

keepingquiet

Things aren't getting worse. The media just want you to think they are because that's how they function- through making people fearful and anxious.

I am no worse off than I was last year... in fact probably better off. I just learned how to shop more sensibly.

Lots of things are cheaper than they were last year- it's all about perspective...

yes, we're encouraged to live in a state of fear and loathing, it's total bollox.

David49

We must get away from the idea that equality is everything, all it achieves is a race to the bottom, the countries we import from encourage wealth, USA, India, Korea even Communist China.
It’s not just billionaires it’s the wealthy in general they have to be encouraged to invest in the UK

But it is the taxes situation that is galling.

They dont pay their fair share.
And have got away with it forever it feels like.
That is what causes resentment.

Ben Habib has donated £100k to his new party, Advance UK and is now applying to the Electoral Commission to register as a proper party. 30k members in a few months.

We must get away from the idea that equality is everything, all it achieves is a race to the bottom, the countries we import from encourage wealth, USA, India, Korea even Communist China.
It’s not just billionaires it’s the wealthy in general they have to be encouraged to invest in the UK

MayBee70

fancythat

Weddingbelle123

Stop the billionaires hiding their wealth in the Cayman Islands!

They can just move Countries anyway, can they not?

Just read something about France saying Labour made a mistake by trying to tax the wealthy.
And the wealthy just got up and moved.

Have the wealthy left the country though. Happy to be corrected but thought I read the other day that it hadn’t actually happened?

It depends which source you read.

Some sources say yes. Some say no.

In real life I know one who has.
But that hardly makes for definite data.

I don’t think the wealthy have left the UK, many other European countries charge far more in taxes than we do.
Surprisingly countries that do charge more still have wealthy people living there though so it doesn’t necessarily compute that all rich people will flee a country if charged more in taxes.

fancythat

Weddingbelle123

Stop the billionaires hiding their wealth in the Cayman Islands!

They can just move Countries anyway, can they not?

Just read something about France saying Labour made a mistake by trying to tax the wealthy.
And the wealthy just got up and moved.

Have the wealthy left the country though. Happy to be corrected but thought I read the other day that it hadn’t actually happened?

Reform won’t be any better and probably a good deal worse, Farage is a publicity hound like George Galloway, happy to jump on the band wagon and preach to the converted whose fears and prejudices help frame his narrative. But he has no real solutions or workable policies, and if hard graft is involved will promptly jump off the band wagon and go to ground.

varian

It was the richest country under President Biden but under Trump it gets poorer by the day - $36.2 trillion in national debt at a recent count and rising,

It matters how the wealth is distributed. It matters very little if Musk and Zuckerberg are getting richer, if the vast majority of the country is getting poorer.

David49

Weddingbelle123

Stop the billionaires hiding their wealth in the Cayman Islands!

You have to understand you can’t tell billionaires where to live, they can buy their way into almost any country they choose.
We should be encouraging them to invest in the UK, to a degree we do but no where near as much as our competitors, it has resulted in almost no technology or renewable industry.

Most of Europe is no better France and several others have serious economic problems, not enough is being invested in growth of the economy

That's why it doesn't matter that much if billionaires do leave the country. They can invest their money (or not) wherever they want.

David I agree with you that the UK needs to do a lot more to encourage inward investment.

It was the richest country under President Biden but under Trump it gets poorer by the day - $36.2 trillion in national debt at a recent count and rising,

fancythat

varian

sazz1

I think Reform is our only hope for a better life here. We've had Conservative which was quite bad with so many strikes under Rishi and don't mention the havoc Liz Truss caused. Kier is really hopeless protests everywhere, mass illegal immigration, pensioners freezing without fuel allowance, private schools and uni fees up, tried to cut money for disabled, hundreds of businesses folding or leaving the UK and Rayner deputy PM doing Tax fraud. Also pensioners being arrested because they don't want Palestinian to suffer any longer.
Reform at least deserves a chance - can they really be any worse?

YES - much much worse _ just look at the USA where Fatage's hero Trump has destroyed the economy and reduced the country to the laughing stock of the world/

It is the richest Country.
By a wide margin.

Ask the average American if he/she is better off and approves of the treatment of women.