So what do GNs think of Starmer’s decision to recognise Palestine as a state?

mamie yes! That was always the case.

Even after the war it was intended do so, but the Israeli government started as it meant to go on and cocked a snook at the world and grappled land from the Palestinians from the get go, and never gave Palestinian citizens full nationality which is why many countries see Israel as an apartheid state.

Smileless2012

phil's comments can be disagreed with Oreo just as anyone's can however, telling a poster that their response is ludicrous especially when it's intelligent and also inclusive of posters generally is rather churlish IMO.

Well, quite - petty: Phil whoever he is hardly needs you Oreo to come in and defend him, he's a big boy, I'm sure.

Its worth remembering who's pushing this Agenda - Phil just starts and continues to come in and posts "the Truth" and then disappears leaving us minions behind to take the trouble to argue his point, from his lofty stance

but will not acknowledge that it may be

"a truth"

but no one can claim to have The Truth

Whitewavemark2

mamie yes! That was always the case.

Even after the war it was intended do so, but the Israeli government started as it meant to go on and cocked a snook at the world and grappled land from the Palestinians from the get go, and never gave Palestinian citizens full nationality which is why many countries see Israel as an apartheid state.

Yes: On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.

Palestine had been a British Protectorate (sounds nicer than colony , doesn't it 😠)

But the British nor anyone else with the power needed to act declared Palestine a State.

To be fair, the British neither agreed with setting up either a Jewish State or an Arab State in Palestine.

Neither did it want unlimited immigration of Jewish people, they feared the consequences -

As indeed they turned out to be.

By the way, I am clear, it was completely right to give those fleeing the Holocaust a haven; but it was utterly wrong not to work with the different Arab Groups to establish a Palestinian State, difficult task tho that indeed was

And so we find ourselves as we are, today.

It’s hilarious!
Wyllow03 now posts historical stuff, but that’s allowed as it coincides with her and others agendas.You couldn’t make it up.😂
You or I have no knowledge Wyllow03 if phil51 is a man or a woman , just as I have no idea if you are a ‘big boy’ to quote your own words.
What I see on this thread is, bias is only acceptable if it’s your own, and historical references are decreed ‘ university level’ unless they’re your own.

We actually have no idea if "Phil"

even wrote the stuff Him/Herself,

Or copied it wholesale from another source. He/she gives no references at all

I have not written a long screed to demand agreement upon. I have offered my personal points of view at all points and if you remember, as I'm sure you do:

I used to always back up what I said with references on past Gaza threads (which annoyed people who wanted to post an option without references, but I earnestly wanted to show I had thought it through.)

However I can assure readers I am a girl. Proof? That might be more tricky.

Wyllow3

Its worth remembering who's pushing this Agenda - Phil just starts and continues to come in and posts "the Truth" and then disappears leaving us minions behind to take the trouble to argue his point, from his lofty stance

but will not acknowledge that it may be

"a truth"

*but no one can claim to have The Truth*

Of course there are truths, not everything is a grey area.
As to another poster and their coming and goings, so what?
People have lives to lead and some of us have work to go to.
Be honest, you just don’t like an opposition.

This published in 2018 is how the blockade affected Gaza before the Oct massacre.

2018 marks 51 years since the occupation of the Palestinian Territory and 11 years of the Gaza blockade. Both the occupation and the blockade affect every aspect of life for Palestinians – they dictate where they can live and study, and whom they can marry.

The blockade has devastated Gaza’s economy, caused widespread destruction and left most people largely cut off from the outside world. Today, one million Palestinians in Gaza don't have enough food to feed their families, despite receiving food assistance or other forms of support.
How has the blockade been affecting Palestinians everyday's life?
The blockade is still in placeTougher restrictions for accessing Gaza via Kerem Shalom, the main commercial crossing. As a consequence, really limited amount of fuel and cooking gas reaches hospitals, homes and business.Fishing zone reduced from 6 to 3 nautical miles (preventing fishermen from accessing 85% of the fishing waters agreed under the Oslo Accords).Almost half of the working-age population are unemployed

2018In April, electricity supply is reduced from 8 to 4 hours per day, with a reduction to 2 hours threatened as of today96% water undrinkable

Now less than four percent of fresh water is drinkable and the surrounding sea is polluted by sewage. Yet the international community is failing to do enough to protect the health and dignity of almost 2 million people who have nowhere else to go.

“Our water is salty as if you are drinking from the sea,” says 50-year old Um Amir, a mother of 11 whose home accommodates an extended family of 20.

42% Unemployment rate, one of the highest in the world.”

Oxfam.

So before the punitive punishment of a total blockade, we have evidence of Israel’s history of illegal blockades for years on end.

I expect that made the Palestinians quite cross.

Wyllow3

We actually have no idea if "Phil"

even wrote the stuff Him/Herself,

Or copied it wholesale from another source. He/she gives no references at all

I have not written a long screed to demand agreement upon. I have offered my personal points of view at all points and if you remember, as I'm sure you do:

I used to always back up what I said with references on past Gaza threads (which annoyed people who wanted to post an option without references, but I earnestly wanted to show I had thought it through.)

However I can assure readers I am a girl. Proof? That might be more tricky.

I don’t know if you or others ‘even wrote the stuff’ yourselves either.
Your comments are getting ever more silly.

Meanwhile evidence of the atrocity of killing those seeking aid is being collated.

Bullets removed from those injured are those used by the IDF.

They are photographed and no doubt be used in the courts.

Is *Whitewavemark2 *’s ‘ long screed’ acceptable? I accept posts of whatever length.

However much they denied it the IDF were shooting innocent Palestinians just going for food to feed their children. They didn't hesitate to kill children too.

AGAA4

However much they denied it the IDF were shooting innocent Palestinians just going for food to feed their children. They didn't hesitate to kill children too.

They still are.

Tragically people are also being killed by the heavy pallets of food aid being dropped from the air.

Just let the bloody lorries in!!

Surely if a whole host of people sailed to or walked/drove to the Gaza borders with aid, the IDF wouldn’t dare kill them would they? If it could be organised there would be hundreds of thousands if not millions willing to take part, judging by world reaction.

I’m just letting my mind wander😊

Quote Whitewavemark2 Sat 09-Aug-25 13:44:52
Meanwhile evidence of the atrocity of killing those seeking aid is being collated.

Bullets removed from those injured are those used by the IDF.

They are photographed and no doubt be used in the courts.

Who spoke of bullets removed from those injured are those
used by IDF? Hospital staff ?

Whitewavemark2

In 1970, Israel’s then Labour government established two “Nahal settlements”. Named after the Nahal brigade, founded by Israel’s first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, these settlements were agricultural communities established by military force. By 2005, there were 21 civilian settlements in the strip, with a total estimated population of 8,600, living alongside a Palestinian population of around 1.3 million.

The settlers’ ideology at that stage did not include the sort of racist anti-Arab sentiments that have become prolific in the ultranationalist corners of the settler movement. But the disparities between the overpopulated Palestinian refugee camps and the flourishing Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip – protected by IDF troops – led to growing Palestinian resentment.

Disengagement from Gaza

Things began to change with the second intifada (uprising), which erupted in 2000 and led to a reassessment of Israel’s settlement policy. Security considerations and a desire to reduce confrontations between the IDF and Palestinian civilians necessitated a new policy of separation.

The Israeli government also wanted to maintain a majority-Jewish population in areas under its control. So the idea of separating off majority Arab areas under the control of a Palestinian authority was appealing to the government of the then prime minister, Ariel Sharon.

Sharon had previously been known as the father of the settlement project. But in 2004 he ordered the evacuation of all Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the north of the West Bank, a project which was accomplished in 2005.

The previously consistent alignment between the settler movement and the state came to an abrupt end. While the majority of Israelis supported the plan, the religious right was violently opposed.

The Jerusalem Post reported: “For Religious Zionists, who link Torah, people, and land, the state’s bulldozers felt like a theological betrayal.”

The “disengagement plan” had significant consequences on the settler movement which then fragmented. A militant racist wing emerged, which has since grown in power and influence.

After the 2022 Israeli national elections, two of the wing’s leaders, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, were included in Netanyahu’s cabinet. The pair have been able to use their leverage over the prime minister to influence the trajectory of the war in Gaza.

Thank you for this information, some of which I hadn't previously been aware.

There you are! Historical posts are welcome from any poster , and it doesn’t matter about length of comment.
That’s nice.

Anniebach

Quote Whitewavemark2 Sat 09-Aug-25 13:44:52
Meanwhile evidence of the atrocity of killing those seeking aid is being collated.

Bullets removed from those injured are those used by the IDF.

They are photographed and no doubt be used in the courts.

Who spoke of bullets removed from those injured are those
used by IDF? Hospital staff ?

May I again politely request that you quote in the correct manner by using the quote button, or at least put quotation marks at beginning and end of quote. It is very difficult to differentiate the quoted words and your own comments, without having to guess or go back to initial comment. Thank youl

Who spoke of bullets removed from those injured are those used by IDF? Hospital staff ?

I looked for the answer to that question on ChatGPT ( thank you to the Gnetter who recommended this as a search tool).

You're asking whether the bullets used by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) are being found in injured Palestinians.
What We Know from Investigations & Forensic Reports
1. "Flour Massacre" (February 2024)
An investigation by the Euro‑Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor found that many of the bullets recovered from hundreds of dead and injured Palestinians near a food distribution area were 5.56×45 mm NATO rounds — the type used in IDF M4 and Tavor rifles and Negev light machine guns .
2. Aid Distribution Shootings (2025)
A comprehensive Guardian investigation (August 2025) documents repeated incidents of machine‑gun fire near Gaza food sites. Bullet casings and injury patterns recovered from patients matched calibres standard to the IDF—7.62×51 mm and .50 cal ⟂ often used in IDF machine guns ⟂ indicating that those rounds hit civilians trying to fetch food .
3. Rescue Worker Deaths
Postmortems of 14 rescue workers killed in Gaza revealed a combination of gunshot wounds and injuries from explosive or “butterfly” type bullets — sharp evidence that unusual high-impact or specialized munitions were also in use .
4. Non‑Lethal vs. Live Ammunition
In separate instances (e.g., shootings during protests), groups like B’Tselem have documented cases where wounds and X-ray evidence strongly suggest live ammunition was used—despite the military’s initial claims that only rubber‑coated rounds were deployed

Thank you Parsley3 that's what I suspected.

And the bullets used to kill Israelis on that fateful day?

ronib

And the bullets used to kill Israelis on that fateful day?

Hamas

Parsley3

^Who spoke of bullets removed from those injured are those used by IDF? Hospital staff ?^

I looked for the answer to that question on ChatGPT ( thank you to the Gnetter who recommended this as a search tool).

You're asking whether the bullets used by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) are being found in injured Palestinians.
What We Know from Investigations & Forensic Reports
1. "Flour Massacre" (February 2024)
An investigation by the Euro‑Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor found that many of the bullets recovered from hundreds of dead and injured Palestinians near a food distribution area were 5.56×45 mm NATO rounds — the type used in IDF M4 and Tavor rifles and Negev light machine guns .
2. Aid Distribution Shootings (2025)
A comprehensive Guardian investigation (August 2025) documents repeated incidents of machine‑gun fire near Gaza food sites. Bullet casings and injury patterns recovered from patients matched calibres standard to the IDF—7.62×51 mm and .50 cal ⟂ often used in IDF machine guns ⟂ indicating that those rounds hit civilians trying to fetch food .
3. Rescue Worker Deaths
Postmortems of 14 rescue workers killed in Gaza revealed a combination of gunshot wounds and injuries from explosive or “butterfly” type bullets — sharp evidence that unusual high-impact or specialized munitions were also in use .
4. Non‑Lethal vs. Live Ammunition
In separate instances (e.g., shootings during protests), groups like B’Tselem have documented cases where wounds and X-ray evidence strongly suggest live ammunition was used—despite the military’s initial claims that only rubber‑coated rounds were deployed

New York Times Headline

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.

www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

wyllow3

That was impressive!

Impressive? It was ludicrous 😄
Only the chosen few can discuss anything historical or present in Israel? I have read many by both you and others on this forum, no doubt googling like mad.
phil51 unlike you, knows what she/he is talking about.
What Wyllow3 is trying to do is shut down any debate on the subject other than her own and chosen others.Something often levelled at others I may add.
There is nothing University level about phil51 comments they are clear and easy to understand.

Impressive indeed.

Your bias is so extreme and how condescending and rude to claim that those arguing against Phil's narrative and bias are 'googling like mad' and ludicrous to boot.

You are fooling no-one at all.

Since Balfour and the West agreed to give Jews a very definite piece of land, the illegal settlers have been ruthless, illegally, this even more so since 67. Illegal, cruel, violent, destructive, and murderous, and with the protection of Knesset and later Netanyahu, who always made clear a massive attack on Palestinians was necessary to achieve his goal, to take all the land and expel all Palestinians.

My bias is just different to your bias Claremont😄 and I have no idea who am meant to be fooling and about what exactly.