Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

Doodledog

Well yes, of course - nothing wrong with mentioning one's friends. It's just that given the small number of TW, it has often felt that Some Posters must know 70% of them personally, is all.

Likewise because overall, for our friends or family members who are women and girls , on this and other similar discussion over the last few years, can feel quite dehumanising towards females.

But I don’t see any trans or their supporters rushing forward to offer apologies or sympathy to women who have been dehumanised.

Luminance

Doodledog I think that people probably say things like "My trans friend" etc because overall this discussion can feel quite dehumanising towards trans people.

Well yes, of course - nothing wrong with mentioning one's friends. It's just that given the small number of TW, it has often felt that Some Posters must know 70% of them personally, is all .

Rosie51

I agree Wyllow3 asking for Rosie's opinion is fine, but Derbyshire was quite hostile to Rosie. It's very telling that nobody is asking the question of how this will affect women and men who don't identify as transgender. It's almost as if they and their fears and feelings still don't matter.

Thats a very valuable post to make Rosie about consulting people. but I think non trans people people have given their opinions on phone ins and on social media.

Because my experience is that people who haven't been involved in the discussions with full information say all kinds of things just going from their own experiences and half heard stuff and who they know.

Phone ins will produce "men are men and women are women and trans dont exist thats that"

then "we should treat people with compassion and trans people are all individuals and have rights" and all sorts in between.

Let's face it, the details of the difference between sex and gender and its histories have just passed most people by.

Perhaps people who work on the front line should be consulted too?

Doodledog I think that people probably say things like "My trans friend" etc because overall this discussion can feel quite dehumanising towards trans people.

I agree Wyllow3 asking for Rosie's opinion is fine, but Derbyshire was quite hostile to Rosie. It's very telling that nobody is asking the question of how this will affect women and men who don't identify as transgender. It's almost as if they and their fears and feelings still don't matter.

If it's part of a general discussion on the issue, asking Rosie Duffield for her opinion about the effect on trans is not unreasonable, but whoever is being interviewed what I really disagree with is the continuous hostile type of approach

"do. you feel responsible for..." etc.

I find Rosie Duffield a bit unusual in this debate. She presents as very agreeable if you know what I mean, many of the other women in this fight are 'difficult' women ( I mean that as a compliment) whereas she is different. Her bravery is surprising in some ways. If I had been asked that question I would have told them to go and jump, but that's probably why I am not in politics.

Great post Doodledog. A good while ago I observed how in my younger and even middle-aged days I'd thought Germaine Greer so out of touch but had come to realise how right she was. I wish we saw her being interviewed more. Victoria Derbyshire would get tougher answers than she bargained for certainly. I saw a snippet of her interview with Rosie Duffield where she asked if Rosie felt responsible for a young transwomen's distress at the clarification of sex in the EA. Never a moment's consideration for all the women for whom this clarification could be a huge step forward.

Iam64

Great apology there Doodledog. Germaine’s generation of feminists are still taking flak. One of my favourites is the old ‘feminisms gone too far, that’s why we have Andrew Tate and his supporters’.

You aren’t alone in spotting the similarity in style and content between Luminance and posters whose names no longer appear

You’re right about Doodledog’s post, from start to finish.
It’s a long time since I read The Female Eunuch and hadn’t really thought about Germaine Greer in the context of Transwomen. Thanks for that reminder.

Great apology there Doodledog. Germaine’s generation of feminists are still taking flak. One of my favourites is the old ‘feminisms gone too far, that’s why we have Andrew Tate and his supporters’.

You aren’t alone in spotting the similarity in style and content between Luminance and posters whose names no longer appear

Luminance, I am trying again to have a real discussion without it becoming decisive/derisory (?) or point-scoring.

The example you use is reminiscent of a previous poster who seemed to 'know' a huge number of transpeople yet also claimed that problems only existed for a minority. That can't work in reality. Either one person comes across enough transpeople to be able to generalise based on that sample, or they/we don't know enough to be able to have an opinion. Both can't be true.

Any of us can claim to be anything on here - I could say I am an eminent psychologist, or a teaching assistant, or a geneticist, for instance, and who would know otherwise? We really can't do more than speak theoretically, as I could claim to have friends who do XYZ, or to meet clients/patients/students on a daily basis who do ABC, and who could argue against that?

We have had posters on here who seemed to preface every post with anecdotes about 'my trans friends' or 'all my Lesbian friends'/ 'my young feminist friends' as if that proved anything or made them seem more 'in touch' than everyone else on GN.

Similarly, we've had people claiming that their 'training' gave them more insight than others' personal experience, and that proved nothing either, given that the training was relatively low-level and provided by Stonewall.

All we can reasonably do is talk in theoretical terms and maybe flag up an occasional example from experience that shows theory to be inadequate in a particular case. Anecdotes in general are not enough to prove anything though, however important they are to those living through the circumstances that they describe.

A propos of nothing relevant to this thread, however, I would like to offer an apology to Germaine Greer (not that she'll care either way) as she was one of the few women to sniff out the reality of this whole shebang years ago - way before I managed to get there. Embarrassingly, I thought that she was out of touch, and can't tell you all how bad I feel about that now. Luckily for both GG and me, she wouldn't be able to spot me in a crowd, whilst I am in awe of her intelligence. Sorry, Germaine.

Luminance

Trying again to have any real discussion without it become derisive or point scoring.
Which you do so expertly.
Carlotta

Yup Luminance it's a real problem. And it's a pity it got so far in it's delusion and led so many people up the garden path of believing something that was biologically impossible.

Luminance

I saw a video of a young lady on my Facebook showing off her glorious long hair. She showed pictures of how she had a "boys" haircut at 15... Full of comments about how she can't change sex... This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.

Why put your life on Facebook?
These people cannot have been her 'friends' either.

Was she donating her hair to The Little Princess Trust? What a wonderful thing to do.

Yup Luminance it's a real problem. And it's a pity it got so far in it's delusion and led so many people up the garden path of believing something that was biologically impossible.

Trying again to have any real discussion without it become derisive or point scoring. In other circles there are a lot of concerns about how trans men will be impacted by this. According to the ruling they can be excluded from men's facilities or wards. This may mean they are excluded from women's safe spaces too because of their appearance. It may cause all sorts of problems when people perceive someone who appears male trying to walk into a woman's toilet. How on earth the NHS, refuges and trans men themselves are supposed to overcome those issues I do not know. A whole section of biological women will not be able to enter safe spaces where their appearance will make other biological women feel vulnerable. Rather a quandary to be resolved.

So? They were stupid pesky extremists weren't they? Perhaps you'll now appreciate how utterly unnecessary and unpleasant it is when a minority of extremists make horrible remarks just because you're not looking/behaving/saying what they want you to do. I sympathetise and commiserate with her; women have been putting up with it from TRAs for 15 years.

Carlotta

^This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.^

Yeah, those pesky extremists; making horrid comments about girls and women; they're everywhere these days. Did they scream "TERF" at her when she tried to explain? They do that a lot you know.

No, they shouted at her saying she couldn't change sex and some anti trans things, as far as I am aware she just regretted cutting all her hair off and was happy it had finally grown back.

This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.

Yeah, those pesky extremists; making horrid comments about girls and women; they're everywhere these days. Did they scream "TERF" at her when she tried to explain? They do that a lot you know.

Galaxy

And what would you have done if one of the women had said no.

I think the Management would have told Pamela that unfortunately she would have to risk using the Male toilets. We would still have given the guys a tough time if anything untoward happened - as, hopefully, the Management would also have done. But we were unanimous in that we considered Pamela no threat to us. No Problem.

🤣🤣🤣

Well, she said she was so I was wholly taking her word for it. I suppose I could have mistranslated, my German is not the best. If she is infact a trans young lady, I could not tell no.

How did you know it was a young lady Luminance?
Are you saying that you can tell the difference?
Some people aren’t going to be happy with your ability.

I saw a video of a young lady on my Facebook showing off her glorious long hair. She showed pictures of how she had a "boys" haircut at 15... Full of comments about how she can't change sex... This is what we have come to, a young lady who cannot regret a short haircut on Facebook without being shouted at.

Carlotta

The issue of gender neutral toilets in schools was kicking off as long ago as February 2023 SueDonim. I seem to remember reading about a school in Norfolk I think who turned almost all toilets into gender neutral and the girls and their parents complained that the girls were afraid to use them.

Even before 3023, Girls’ toilets at a girls’ school where a girl lied that she was a boy and persuaded others to join her, then denied girls entrance because the toilets were now for ‘boys’ would not have been helped by a gender neutral declaration.

Hopefully this is just the beginning of past wrongs being put right:

Transgender women have been banned from the female category of Ultimate Pool Group (UPG) after last week's landmark UK Supreme Court ruling that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

The professional body for 8-ball pool said it has amended its eligibility rules so that participation in its women's events "are open only to biologically born women".