Proprtional Representation - some good news

In principle I support PR but the version we were offered previously gave a list of candidates who had to be listed in order of preference. Some entries would be people I would vote against, ( the extremist and bigots) but all my vote would then be lost.
I think that a single transferable vote would be the best idea.

David49

OldFrill

EEJit

MaizieD

The 'PR' offered in 2011 was not a good version. Cameron only went forward with a referendum to keep the Liberal party with whom the tories were in coalition happy.

I think we must know by now that referendums aren't a good idea...

They seem to work well in Switzerland

Voter participation in Switzerland is very low.

Switzerland has referendums on something or other every year

Swiss votation is at least yearly but most of them rarely bother participating.

MaizieD

The 'PR' offered in 2011 was not a good version. Cameron only went forward with a referendum to keep the Liberal party with whom the tories were in coalition happy.

I think we must know by now that referendums aren't a good idea...

Referendums in the Netherlands seem to work fine. If people vote the wrong way, they just make them vote again - correctly, this time.

A lot of Labour supporters voted Lib Dem too dayvidg, it was indeed anything to get the Tories out. It’s also a fact that Labour came top of the polls in 412 seats. Like it or not, they have the mandate to govern.

Tizliz

We have PR in Scotland and it seems very complicated. You know who your constituency MSP is but then you have 7 regional ones and I have little idea as to whom they are or what they do! Because of the way the list works you seem to get some Regional MSPs you have never heard of.

Sounds a right dogs dinner to me.

The last election, in particular, was subjected to a great deal of 'tactical' voting (anyone but the Tories!). Many Lib-Dem & Green voters now seem to regret voting Labour. Would Reform have got anything like as many votes had the Election been run under P.R.?
As Sir Keir said “Look, I remind myself that very many people didn’t vote Labour at the last election. I am not surprised many of them want a re-run.” Or, we won so we'll do as we like, and ignore any public criticism.

I won't be voting in a general election again unless proportional representation is introduced or the facility to say "none of the above", with consequences for a rerun if enough people say that. It's a farce that we have a government that got 33% of votes cast (20% of the electorate) yet have a huge majority in Parliament and seem to think they have a mandate to do what they want, whether it was in their manifesto or not. For too many of us it does not make sense to vote for the party you support, or we have to think about tactical or negative voting to try to keep out a party we don't like. I won't be doing that any more. Sadly, the government seem unconcerned about our endangered democracy and determined to maintain the status quo because they think it is in their interest. To say that our current system is good because it stops a party like Reform having significant representation in Parliament is unprincipled to say the least.

As an active Lib Dem, I've been a supporter of PR for years. It does give a fairer representation of voters' preferences.
But it's a case of Be Careful What You
Wish For, with Reform in the picture now.
And I can't help looking at France and Germany and thinking Ho Hum.

We have some friends of long standing who are LP members and supporters. Over the years we have had many arguments, usually after dinner with a few bottles of wine. We are also LP supporters and I have been a member for a few years (Corbyn era).

I have been annoyed at the way in which staunch members accept everything that the LP says without criticism. Thus, my hope is for a decent type of PR and, if the LP loses some seats, so will the Tories which should benefit smaller parties.

I think that slow decision making could be a good thing. We have suffered a lot of a result of strong govt - such a nationalisation and the vast cost of HS2. Obviously one would hope that in a time of emergency all parties would come together quickly.

keepingquiet

Well when we had a referendum on this back in 2011 hardly anyone turned out to vote.

FPTP isn't perfect by any means but not sure PR has as much support as you think.

Look at France- what a pickle they're in.

The current pickle is due to Macron who selected Barnier as PM.

PR in the UK would not be the same as in France because our head of state does not chose the PM.

If you want a really good example of PR in practice Israel, the minority religious parties hold the country to ransome.

OldFrill

EEJit

MaizieD

The 'PR' offered in 2011 was not a good version. Cameron only went forward with a referendum to keep the Liberal party with whom the tories were in coalition happy.

I think we must know by now that referendums aren't a good idea...

They seem to work well in Switzerland

Voter participation in Switzerland is very low.

Switzerland has referendums on something or other every year

Smileless2012

^Look at France - what a pickle they're in^ exactly keepingquiet.

But then you could look at the USA, didn’t Hillary Clinton had nearly 2.9 more votes than Trump?

As for France, it is a bit crazy at the moment but I have faith (maybe it’s misplaced) in Macron. We will see in March.

However, I do like the French system of voting twice.

EEJit

MaizieD

The 'PR' offered in 2011 was not a good version. Cameron only went forward with a referendum to keep the Liberal party with whom the tories were in coalition happy.

I think we must know by now that referendums aren't a good idea...

They seem to work well in Switzerland

Voter participation in Switzerland is very low.

As Maizie said, the previous referendum on PR was not properly handled - many of the political commentators said that the type of voting system put forward was a very bad choice.

And my recollection is that there was very little time to find out how the PR system being put forward would operate - the pros and cons. It is such a drastic change in our voting system that there should be a lengthy lead in time before a vote, a choice as to the system adopted, and lots of programmes giving information as to the different voting systems being put forward. To me, that seems like quite a challenging set of requirements.

Our system often seems unfair in many ways, but other systems may be quite dangerous in allowing extreme groups to hold other parties to ransom or in creating a stalemate situation where chaos ensues.

MaizieD

The 'PR' offered in 2011 was not a good version. Cameron only went forward with a referendum to keep the Liberal party with whom the tories were in coalition happy.

I think we must know by now that referendums aren't a good idea...

They seem to work well in Switzerland

UK and Belarus are only two in Europe

keepingquiet

Well when we had a referendum on this back in 2011 hardly anyone turned out to vote.

FPTP isn't perfect by any means but not sure PR has as much support as you think.

Look at France- what a pickle they're in.

I agree! I wouldn’t want that here in the UK.

I spent some time last year campaigning for Make Votes Matter as I am so cross that my vote in a safe Tory seat is totally wasted. I could go on.... but with the rise in Reform, I'm really having doubts about PR now!

I lived in Suffolk for over 20 years in a Tory safe seat. This meant that I was without representation. When we arrived John Selwyn Gummer was the MP and he was a hard worker for the constituents. His replacement Therese Coffey was no where near as good as far as I'm aware but we had left before she was elected.

Look at France - what a pickle they're in exactly keepingquiet.

I’ve got big reservations about PR, as I’ve said previously when it’s been discussed. No party in the UK ever gets over 50% of the total vote in general elections, so from now on every government would be a coalition, which results in a lack of direction and slow decision making. It also results in MPs representing regions, not local people/issues, because to get the split of MPs correct between the parties that’s the only way it can be done.

There are only two European countries which elect governments by the undemocratic,critical FPTP - UK and Belarus

It’s interesting that it has passed its first vote.
In general, major parties only think it’s a good idea when they’re not in power so it’s unlikely to go any further.

GrannyGravy13

I have just had a look at the percentages each party won in the last GE.

Reform came third, under PR they would have more representation than the Lib Dem’s, Labour would not have such a vast majority.

Not sure Labour will take this any further.

I believe the number of Reform MPs would be about 93 if we had PR.
Not sure about the Lib Dems but they have 72? MPs this time.

It was passed with a narrow margin but is unlikely to become law.

A case of be careful what you wish for.