Amsterdam attacks

Antisemitism is rising in every country ,

Anniebach

Antisemitism is rising in every country ,

Do you honestly think that most informed people don't know that?

Are you also aware that there are some Israelis who are racist? Or that hatred of Arabs and Muslims isn't rising too?

The truth is that people are becoming more entrenched and bigoted (and uneducated).

Oreo

I just wondered about Denmark.Jews face antisemitism and hostility in every city but see what you mean.

So do Arabs. (But I can't imagine for one moment that you can accept that.)

Anniebach

Antisemitism is rising in every country ,

Annie, I'm very aware of that. I was reading up specifically on Denmark

(I also found some relevant things about increasing hostility from Denmarks Far right).

The Maccobi fans are now back in Israel. The people left behind, to repeat my point, I believe has been made worse by those fans.

I'm sure they would not go on the streets shouting f* the Arabs or terrible remarks about Palestinian children! No decent person would, especially re the children.

growstuff

Rosie51 There was more than vile chanting. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans attacked the taxi driver and his car with a chain. They had tooled themselves up before there was any retaliation. The time stamps on some of the published videos and witnesses have shown pretty conclusively the sequence of events.

Sorry, my post obviously didn't make it clear that I was referencing the protest chants and Israel flag burning that happens in the UK. I don't think you'd accept that as an excuse for physical violence against Muslims, but maybe to be fair you would.

Until all the evidence is available it's impossible to ascertain the framework of the incidents. How many attacked the taxi driver and does that make all Maccabi fans guilty? Were the pro Palestinian participants sure they only targeted the guilty? Did they even care or was being Jewish guilt enough?

Your last sentence Rosie51 is very pertinent and perceptive. I think I understand what you are saying in this discussion. That the crime is actually being Jewish, before a Jew even opens their mouth or engages in any untoward physical activity. Being Jewish attracts hostility, always has done, and Anniebach is right, always will around the entire world.
I am educated and close enough to the issue, to know in a small way, that being Jewish comes with the harsh realisation that antipathy towards you will exist for no reason at all. It is deep-seated and inexplicable.

I accept that the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans didn't exactly help themselves in the Amsterdam situation. But Rosie51 is right to say that it is impossible to ascertain the correct timeline of the incidents because none of us has that information. And anyway, how can anyone put an finger on exactly when insidious thoughts to stage an attack are being planned by either side? The pro-Palestinian campaigners had been protesting about the Jewish team participating in the matches for quite some time. Their animosity was already evident and building.

The chants about the children were inexcusable, and I agree with Wyllow3 that they caused embarrassment to peaceful citizens in Amsterdam. That is not a clever way to gain support for the Jewish cause. But support them one must, not just because of the WW2 context, but because they are eternally and universally persecuted just for being Jewish, and that, in my opinion, is out of order.

But Rosie51 is right to say that it is impossible to ascertain the correct timeline of the incidents because none of us has that information.

That's not true. There's video evidence, some of which is date/time stamped. Sky was one of the first news channels to report the violence. Their first report was about Maccabi Tel Aviv chanting and the attack on the Morrocan taxi driver with no mention at all about any of the retaliatory attacks. Even the Amsterdam police has now admitted this.

By the way, Maccabi Tel Aviv isn't a Jewish team. It's an Israeli team, which has had (and still has) non-Jewish players. At least one of its players, Issouf Sissokho, is a Malian Christian.

I don't agree with supporting Jews unconditionally if they behave abominably.

Even the Israeli national team has players in the squad who aren't Jewish (Mohammad Abu Fani, Mamoud Jaber, Ramzi Safouri, Anan Khalaili and Shareef Keouf).

I most definitely do not and can not support the Palestinians when they behave abominably.

Same here love0c and the pro Palestinians did behave abominably in Amsterdam.
growstuff I understand you’re invested in this subject as you’ve said on GN that your DD has an Arab heritage background partner, but that doesn’t negate the way that Jews have always been treated throughout history or any physical attacks on them here, Amsterdam or in other countries.

growstuff

I don't agree with supporting Jews unconditionally if they behave abominably.

Presumably then, you support NO group of people however they are compartmentalised.

Because in every grouping of people you will have those - even if it's a tiny minority - whose behaviour is unacceptable.

So what you're saying is you withdraw some of your support for a whole swathe of people because some of them, probably unknown to the majority and quite possible in another country or on the other side of the world, did something wrong.

A bit like 1930's Germany then.

Some of the squad were not Jews ? But some were, should we
expect Jews to wear The Star Of David ?

growstuff

I don't agree with supporting Jews unconditionally if they behave abominably.

I don't think many people do.

Your extensive and impressive knowledge about Maccabi Tel Aviv and the Israeli national team probably goes way beyond what the average person knows. Were you aware of all this months or years ago or has google educated you since this trouble? Regardless of the accuracy both teams will likely be perceived as being Jewish teams and their supporters likewise. For some that assumption is sufficient to justify their actions.

growstuff

By the way, Maccabi Tel Aviv isn't a Jewish team. It's an Israeli team, which has had (and still has) non-Jewish players. At least one of its players, Issouf Sissokho, is a Malian Christian.

OK Maccabi Tel Aviv is identified as a Jewish Club then, as is Spurs. I think maybe some others here at home are too.
Of course you don't have to be Jewish to play for Maccabi Tel Aviv or any others. (I know that because a young relative plays for an international Italian team, but he isn't Italian or Catholic, though he does eat pizza!)
I'm glad Israeli teams include players of all nationalities, and races, or whatever. Not just Arab players too, as the list of German players in Israeli clubs is quite extensive too. It shows they bear no grudges in that sense.

Anniebach

Some of the squad were not Jews ? But some were, should we
expect Jews to wear The Star Of David ?

😲

Oreo

Same here love0c and the pro Palestinians did behave abominably in Amsterdam.
growstuff I understand you’re invested in this subject as you’ve said on GN that your DD has an Arab heritage background partner, but that doesn’t negate the way that Jews have always been treated throughout history or any physical attacks on them here, Amsterdam or in other countries.

Absolutely Oreo.

Rosie51

growstuff

I don't agree with supporting Jews unconditionally if they behave abominably.

I don't think many people do.

Your extensive and impressive knowledge about Maccabi Tel Aviv and the Israeli national team probably goes way beyond what the average person knows. Were you aware of all this months or years ago or has google educated you since this trouble? Regardless of the accuracy both teams will likely be perceived as being Jewish teams and their supporters likewise. For some that assumption is sufficient to justify their actions.

Just to say, and I am not now making light of this discussion at all, I AM a bit educated in this area. Long before Google existed, I worked for Tottenham Hotspur at The Chanticleer in N17. My father was part Jewish, I am not.
Some of us speak from experience, some from listening to other people who may be Jewish friends or relatives, and some from extensive googled research. For me, it isn't a competition, and I'm not looking to score points.
What is being discussed is here too important for that.
Just to be clear.

escaped I hope you don't think I'm making light of this discussion. I was just pointing out that the average person will not be au fait with the teams mentioned and will likely think of them as Jewish teams and their supporters too. I also have some Jewish family without being Jewish myself, I'm from the male line that married out.

The thing is escaped is that within the Jewish religion, you are either Jewish or you're not. You can't be "part Jewish" or "half Jewish".

"For me, it isn't a competition, and I'm not looking to score points.
What is being discussed is here too important for that.
Just to be clear"

Thank you for that.

I'm not quite sure (I might be really wrong)

that the backgrounds of people laying in the actual teams makes a lot of difference between the points of discussion as regards both the behaviours of the Maccobi fans and the pro-Palestinian attackers?

playing not "laying"

Rosie51

escaped I hope you don't think I'm making light of this discussion. I was just pointing out that the average person will not be au fait with the teams mentioned and will likely think of them as Jewish teams and their supporters too. I also have some Jewish family without being Jewish myself, I'm from the male line that married out.

👍 not at all Rosie51. I think we pretty much sing from the same sheet.
I agree that mentioning the names of random Arab players in an Israeli team is taking Google research a bit far. Are they Muslims, I've no idea. What I was saying is, why even bother to mention them when players' names aren't also given?

* German players' names