Prayer ban at Katharine Birbalsingh’s school is lawful, High Court rules .

Maybe I have an affinity with KB because I find Maths exceedingly hard, I really can't do much beyond money sums and the 24 hour clock! KB has a degree in French, good choice that (!!) with plenty of scope to learn grammar rules and to apply them, as well as to study great works of literature and develop analytical skills. But I digress.

All teachers find it hard to sustain complete discipline without resorting to tough rules and sanctions. That way the children tend to know where they stand, and what the boundaries are, that's not mentally crushing them is it?

TinSoldier

That’s up to them but I am astonished that any parent of daughters could support a headteacher who patronises girls in this way rather than provide them with the encouragement and teaching in subjects that lead to exciting careers.

That’s your viewpoint, but it’s a dangerous game deciding that other parents are wrong for not agreeing with you, however many names you attach, and very dismissive of anyone at any school, who does not opt for your idea of exciting careers.

That’s up to them but I am astonished that any parent of daughters could support a headteacher who patronises girls in this way rather than provide them with the encouragement and teaching in subjects that lead to exciting careers.

It isn't just me who feels this way but many other professional women.

Dame Athene Donald, a professor of experimental physics and master of Churchill College, Cambridge, said the comments were “terrifying” and “quite damaging” and questioned to which research Birbalsingh was referring in suggesting that girls had an intrinsic lack of appetite for maths and physics.

It’s not a case of campaigning for more girls to do physics, it’s a case of making sure that girls aren’t discouraged by remarks like this,” Donald said. “We want girls to be free to pursue what they’re good at and, equally, boys should also be able to go into professions like nursing. We aren’t in a society like that.

Dr Jess Wade, a physicist at Imperial College London who campaigns for equality in science, said: “I honestly can’t believe we’re still having this conversation. It’s patronising, it’s infuriating, and it’s closing doors to exciting careers in physics and engineering for generations of young women. Whilst girls and boys currently choose A-level subjects differently, there is absolutely no evidence to show intrinsic differences in their abilities or preference.

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/apr/27/girls-shun-physics-a-level-as-they-dislike-hard-maths-says-social-mobility-head

I was incensed by Katharine Birbalsingh’s comments. In 1975, I chose physics, maths, chemistry and biology for A-levels. The groups were about a third female. Both our physics and chemistry teachers were female. My daughter, now a doctor, chose sciences, including physics, for all her A-level subjects.

I went to a comprehensive school and we were encouraged to do subjects we enjoyed. I am glad we did not have teachers telling us that, because we were female, we would not choose physics or maths because they were too hard. Presumably Birbalsingh also discourages girls from doing too much reading as this might cause their brains to melt and dribble out through their ears.

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/apr/28/no-girls-are-not-put-off-by-hard-maths-katharine-birbalsingh

Well, if all those parents agreed with your views the school would have no pupils and would have to close.

I don’t quite understand why I am being attacked. I am just expressing my views based on what I have read about Birbalsingh in the past, her negative views about girls and STEM and what I have read in the 85 page judgement. I’m a woman with a degree in Maths and Computer Science who has had a good career as a result of that. I dislike her patronising attitude that girls can’t do hard maths. Of course they can, if they have a good teacher. And, of course, parents can make their own choices; I am not saying that they can’t so long as the children have a say in it too and don’t end up mentally crushed by the machine-like regime or physically dead because they were made to stand out in the cold and wet day after day for no good reason. That isn’t education. That isn’t knowledge. That’s a headteacher making children suffer just because she has the power to do so.

I know that I would not let my child or grandchild within a country mile of Birbalsingh and her unyielding autocracy… which I would never do anyway because of her demeaning views on girls and STEM

You could decide for your own child but cannot make decisions on behalf of a grandchild unless you are in loco parentis.

There are different aspects of intransigence apparent here.

Yes, that's true. Sadly, the parent in this court case wasn't paying attention when she chose the school ...

29. The Claimant was initially put on the waiting list for a place at the School and her place was only confirmed shortly before Year 7 started. Her mother did not attend the School’s open days, or its welcome events for new pupils. This may be why she does not recall being told anything about prayers or the fact that the School did not have a prayer room when the Claimant joined the School.

... or all of this might have been avoided.

But the controversy has at least given me a chance to learn more about the school and Birbalsingh's autocratic methods. I was already aware of her negative attitude towards girls and STEM which was why she had to resign as social mobilty tsar but until I read the judgement I hadn't realised just what a boot camp it is.

There is no shortage of places. It's only running at 85% capacity. There are 132 places not filled - only 708 students when the capacity is 840.

maddyone

Well since you wouldn’t choose that school for your child/grandchild, it leaves a place for those parents who do wish their child to go there. Everyone’s happy. If a school is operating within the law and parents choose to send their children there, it’s nothing to do with anyone else.

Precisely.

Why get so exercised over a school which other parents choose for their children because of its strictness if you wouldn't send your child there, TinSoldier?

We may all have an opinion about this but the fact remains it's a choice for people living in Brent, no-one else.

If my child couldnt cope with reciting poetry without nightmares I am not sure I would think i had managed to ensure some level of resilience. I spend a lot of time in schools, many are good, many are places where children are not receiving a good standard of education due to level of behaviour. I would say we as a society are failing our children on all sorts of levels, so it might be worth considering other approaches before we dismiss them.

Well since you wouldn’t choose that school for your child/grandchild, it leaves a place for those parents who do wish their child to go there. Everyone’s happy. If a school is operating within the law and parents choose to send their children there, it’s nothing to do with anyone else.

@Wyllow and Glorianny

When I was reading the old Guardian article on responses to Gove’s tenure as Education Secretary ...

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jul/22/michael-gove-legacy-education-secretary

... I found this comment from Schoolduggery, education blogger

He'd probably like to be remembered for free schools, but I don't think that is a legacy that will last … The scope for innovation and additional choice isn't there.

I think that’s one of the issues with Michaela - that it has a limited curriculum that doesn’t fit the needs of the modern workplace and future workforce because Birbalsingh has a negative view of skills training and some STEM subjects.

I wonder to what extent the school loses students as they come to selecting GCSE and A Level subjects - which might explain why it is running at undercapacity.

It makes no sense when the ONS reports that the third highest paid jobs in the UK are in IT (after CEOs and marketing, sales and advertising executives). Median salary in IT is £80,000 which means half the people are earning more than that. According to Morgan McKinley, the average salary range for Python developers is £80,000 to £100,000 - with five years experience £130,000. Python is the language behind websites and AI. And yet Birbalsingh won’t have GCSE ICT and A/AS Level Computer Science on her curriculum to provide students with a foundation for tertiary level study. She’s living in Victorian times or possibly 1950 but not the 21C.

You think wrongly. And, as I have said repeatedly - and esteemed educational professionals agree with my layperson’s view - Michaela is not a secular school. There is no such thing within the state-funded system. The entire 85 page judgement does not define what a secular school is, only that Michaela claims to be one which cannot be true. I would be grateful if you would refrain from implying that what I say on that matter is wrong. Why must I cast aside a view that is accurate?

The judgement is too long to discuss here in great detail but I will say that I think the whole frightening boot camp ethos of the school, as described comprehensively in the judgement, directly contributed to the unpleasant events that unfolded and could so easily have been avoided. If you deliberately subdue a group of people, even children, with authoritarian, totally inflexible, unyielding practices, you should not be surprised when those people start to rebel and things turn nasty.

I don’t agree with Birbalsingh’s methods. I think she’s an utterly cruel dictator whatever kind of show she puts on in interviews. She’s like a schoolmaster from Dickens. Her whole attitude is Victorian. I’ll just pick out a couple of things from the judgement:

53. An important corollary of this disciplinary ethos is that teachers at the school are in unquestioned positions of authority over the children … There is no opportunity for a child to respond … Teachers and children are not equals…

71. The morning break lasts for 15 minutes. Years 9-11 are required to spend the whole of it outside in the yard, even if it is cold and/or raining. What kind of adult deliberately makes children stand in cold rain? You wouldn’t do that to a dog. Children with poor immune systems could become very ill as a result of this.

76. Lunch sittings last 25 minutes. At the start of every sitting the pupils stand beside their chairs and chant poetry which they have memorised during Tutor time or during English lessons. A teacher calls out the first word of the poem and all of the pupils call back together with the rest of the line. The poems include … “Invictus” by William Ernest Henley, which are chosen for their emphasis on resilience and responsibility for one’s own actions.

For those not familar with Invictus from “Life and Death”.

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

This is what young children have to recite over lunch when they deserve a bit of break after a morning’s work. I’m surprised they don’t have nightmares.

Paragraphs 28 -37. The child sounds perfectly reasonable. She explains that neither she nor her mother realised that the school did not have a prayer room.

29. The Claimant was initially put on the waiting list for a place at the School and her place was only confirmed shortly before Year 7 started. Her mother did not attend the School’s open days, or its welcome events for new pupils. This may be why she does not recall being told anything about prayers or the fact that the School did not have a prayer room when the Claimant joined the School.

30. The Claimant says that in Year 8 she started to take prayer seriously. The question of praying came up in conversation amongst her friends, and her mother and other parents also discussed it. She and her friends knew that they should be praying as they were getting older and reaching puberty, but they did not feel that they could ask for a prayer room because they believed that prayer was not permitted: “In general if we were not explicitly allowed to do something we could not do it”. They had also heard rumours of a request for a prayer room being made in the past which had been ignored.

She understands that at some times of year it would not be possible to pray without missing lesson time which she would not want to do but for much of the year it would be possible. She says that she needs the connection with God for those five minutes at the right time so as to enable her to continue peacefully with her day. Not being able to do so makes her upset.

Five minutes is all she was asking for. Why on earth could she not be allowed to take five minutes to pray instead or being forced to recite dark Victorian poetry?

23. The key witnesses argued their cases in the evidence and there was little acknowledgment of the perspective of those with whom they disagreed.

I would say that it’s understandable and quite normal for a young teenager not to see the perspective of an adult - every parent and teacher has had to deal with that - but for an adult, Birbalsingh, to not acknowledge the perspective of the child is sheer bloody-mindedness and shows a disrespect for the student’s faith and how important is it to her. Here it is again … Teachers and children are not equal.

I think it’s interesting that Birbalsingh was a great fan of Gove during his tenure as Education Secretary. She responded to his removal in 2014 describing it as a tragedy. This was not the view shared by many (most?) other educational professionals who saw his tenure as divisive and damaging.

People can read the negative comments here:

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jul/22/michael-gove-legacy-education-secretary

I’ll just highlight one comment from Professor Tim Brighouse who died last year. He was the Schools Commissioner for London between 2002 and 2007.

… coupled with [Gove’s] seeming belief that Islam equates to radicalism …

I wonder to what extent Birbalsingh agrees with that.

In fact, it’s worth quoting two more of the comments about Gove just to illustrate why Birbalsingh was such a fan:

Professor Sir Richard Evans, historian, president of Wolfson College, Cambridge

^ I'll remember him as someone who tried to dumb down the teaching of history by eliminating the teaching of skills and converting it to a mindless rote learning of a slanted patriotic version of events … Fortunately, his attempt to foist his own rather ignorant and partial version of history on to the national curriculum was one of his many failures.^

Tom Sherrington, headteacher, King Edward VI Grammar School, Chelmsford

… there's a principle in a democracy, that it's not just about getting elected, it's about building consent, which he fundamentally didn't seek. The way he operated was undemocratic.

I know that I would not let my child or grandchild within a country mile of Birbalsingh and her unyielding autocracy… which I would never do anyway because of her demeaning views on girls and STEM.

Wyllow3

Callistemon21

Wyllow3

There is a waiting list for the school so maybe the numbers are kept low for pupil/teacher ratios.
State schools don’t have that option.
I agree about the ? Around analytical/critical thinking skills.

It is a state-funded school!
🤔

I'll clarify

As far as I understand, free Schools are of course state funded but have a greater degree of independence and control

- an ordinary secondary school with a waiting list would not be allowed to run up a situation where there were unfilled places for nearly 100 pupils?

Could you imagine the local furore where you want your child to go to a certain school with vacancies but are refused?

by the way, entry to what we'd have called the 6th form is restricted only to pupils with high levels of achievement at GCSE - its very selective.

If Michaela was a school under the control of the Local education authority it would have to accept children who had been excluded from other schools to fill those places.
It would be interesting to see how long it would manage to maintain standards then.

I think you haven’t studied the judgement TS. I would urge you to do so. It explains the strict Islamic prayer requirements, how the timing of what you refer to as ‘midday prayer’ varies according to the position of the sun (the time of year) and why the demands of strict adherents could not be accommodated by this school. It also makes clear the disruption and bullying and death threats which followed a concerted attempt to pray. Reading press reports is no substitute for reading the judgment. They give a very unreliable account of what happened. You need to cast aside your views on what constitutes a secular school and read, in the judgement, about the ethos of this particular school.

Thank you for the link gsm I’ll read later.
Two of my grandchildren are at a Catholic primary school. I posted earlier , their mother , an experienced primary teacher chose the school from the two locals in their village. We are a typical c of e family, she went to a state primary , c of e sought after high school with Church attendance necessary to get a place. Children’s father Catholic non practicing family. She spoke to all of us was very clear this was the best for her children. Small village family faith rooted school. The children are thriving. The 8 year old preparing for first Holy Communion. Not something his mum or maternal extended family did . We are all supporting it as part of his commitment to school and the church it’s connected to.
This may offend some. Faith is part of life. Non believers have faith in humanity
I have faith in a liberal approach to faith
I don’t appreciate fundamentalism or bullying dressed up as faith🙏🏽

Callistemon21

Wyllow3

There is a waiting list for the school so maybe the numbers are kept low for pupil/teacher ratios.
State schools don’t have that option.
I agree about the ? Around analytical/critical thinking skills.

It is a state-funded school!
🤔

I'll clarify

As far as I understand, free Schools are of course state funded but have a greater degree of independence and control

- an ordinary secondary school with a waiting list would not be allowed to run up a situation where there were unfilled places for nearly 100 pupils?

Could you imagine the local furore where you want your child to go to a certain school with vacancies but are refused?

by the way, entry to what we'd have called the 6th form is restricted only to pupils with high levels of achievement at GCSE - its very selective.

I am not commenting on how the particular student at the cente of the case behaved. They are young and may not have gone about their protest in the right way. But generally that’s how protests about anything build. One or two people start a movement and persuade others to join them. It happens in schools about all kinds of things. Peer pressure can be very strong among young people and there may be a fine line between persuasion and coercion. I understand that.

Parents chose secondary schools for their children when they are 10 or 11. Those children may or may not be given a choice in the matter and, as they start to mature, they may have different views to their parents.

What nobody is answering is why a midday prayer that takes as little as five minutes and is an important part of Muslim culture and faith cannot be accommodated in a school that has a large number of Muslim pupils. What is that Birbalsingh finds so difficult about that? It could be accommodated in the midday break. It would not have to cut into lesson time.

Why does she say that integration has to be forced? Apply that logic to other things in life - you will be forced to do something - is a dangerously slippery slope.

Rather than people slavishly accepting that what Birbalsingh says is right and proper, could someone here please explain to me what would be so wrong about accommodating midday prayer. I don't want to hear because Birbalsingh says so. I want to know what you think her reasons are and why you think they are valid.

The argument that the student could elsewhere isn't good enough. If the teaching standards at the school are good, maybe even better than other nearby schools, then why should a student be denied access to that simply because they want to adhere to their faith by praying for five minutes at midday?

As Whitewavemark2 and Wyllow3 have said, the court ruling is going to cause problems and they are right.

Colin Diamond, a professor of educational leadership at Birmingham University, said: “I think we are in a classic English education policy muddle now and it will take some thinking through, not least at the Department for Education.”

He said he was surprised by the ruling as there was no such thing as a secular school in England, with state schools still legally required to provide a daily act of collective worship that is “broadly Christian”.

Which is what I have been saying all the long. Michaela is not secular.

More comment here:

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/apr/17/experts-divided-over-implications-of-prayer-ban-ruling-at-london-school

That is how she came across in her evidence.

I listened to a podcast from the headteacher, and it mentioned much of the information around bullying, etc. She may of course be good at 'selling her side of the story' but I must say I found a lot of what she was saying very inclusive and ambitious for the children in her care.

She is, I think, a real troublemaker with a capacity for whipping up divisiveness and bullying others. I agree as regards the interference from the Muslim visitor.

It’s entirely clear that this is not based on the secular ethos which has been spoken about so much on this thread. For instance, the wearing of some manifestation of faith may be permitted, such as the wearing of a red thread around the wrist by Hindus.

Thank you for the link Germanshepherdsmum.

I had a quick skim earlier while my colour was taking at the haidressers. There's a lot of whipping up trouble from the pupil. I didn't like the bit that a visiting Headmaster of a Muslim school had been encouraging her from the start, saying what he would do. None of his business.

Germanshepherdsmum

Well done for wading through it while I've been out 😁

There is certainly a lot of misinformation being posted.

Wyllow3

There is a waiting list for the school so maybe the numbers are kept low for pupil/teacher ratios.
State schools don’t have that option.
I agree about the ? Around analytical/critical thinking skills.

It is a state-funded school!
🤔

TinSoldier

@Joseann

Yes, capacity is 840 but number on roll 708 according to date last changed / confirmed 19 March 2024. 132 places unfilled - running at only 85% capacity which is interesting in itself.

www.get-information-schools.service.gov.uk/Establishments/Establishment/Details/140862

I admit I do not like Birbalsingh. I think she's a dictator with stereotypical, outdated ideas about girls and STEM - all that nonsense about girls not being able to do physics because the maths is too hard. It's why she resigned at social mobility tsar. It's the job of her teachers to teach the girls how to do the maths. I suspect she was worried that poor results would make her school seem less successful.

I dislike the distinction she makes between knowledge and skills - why she won't include GCSE ICT and A/AS Level Computer Science in the curriculum. Both teach analytical and critical thinking skills. I question why she thinks these are unimportant in the 21C.

I dislike the distinction she makes between knowledge and skills - why she won't include GCSE ICT and A/AS Level Computer Science in the curriculum. Both teach analytical and critical thinking skills. I question why she thinks these are unimportant in the 21C.

Unless you are choosing a secondary school for a child in your care, why are you in the least bit concerned about the ethos and teaching at thst school?
Surely it is up to the parents of prospective pupils to decide and there is certainly plenty of choice in the London Borough of Brent.