As the DWP steers a bill to give it access to 9 million claimants’ bank accounts through parliament, it is already pushing for additional powers of arrest, search and seizure. In effect, the DWP is aiming to have its own anti-fraud police force and to be able to impose huge fines without going to court. But should such plans go ahead?
Lessons from recent history
The current Post Office scandal is clear evidence of what happens when such powers are misused and there are some worrying parallels between the behaviour of the Post Office and the DWP, as we noted earlier this month in Post Office Horizon software originally aimed at claimants.
And there is no doubt that the DWP are serious about getting these powers.
In a May 2022 report entitled ‘Fighting Fraud in the Welfare System’ the DWP said that “we plan to create new powers so our officers will be able to undertake arrests and apply to search and seize evidence in criminal investigations, when parliamentary time allows. This will enable them to act in a timely fashion, without always having to rely on police resources.”
Remember, state pensions, which are a benefit, will come under this law. Even though the say they will only access the accounts of those on income related benefits they will have a legal right to access all the information on your account.
If you have been watching the Post Office Inquiry it is obvious that many of those "policing" were under qualified and/or under trained. At times they had large cuts in staff. The DWP are already understaffed and all too often staff override or ignore evidence. It is also obvious that the first loyalty when Horizon was found wanting was to the Post Office brand and not to justice. Why would that be any different in the DWP?
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/would-you-feel-safe-with-a-dwp-%E2%80%98police-force%E2%80%99?utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Benefits+and+Work&utm_content=V2+January+2024+newsletter
If people have claimed their benefits honestly there is no need to worry. Those who have committed benefit fraud need to be found out and stopped.
AGAA4
There is benefit fraud and I expect the DWP to investigate. I doubt they will be trawling through everyone's bank accounts as they don't have enough staff to do that.
They will only investigate if they suspect someone is benefitting illegally.
The problems in the Post Office were caused by Fujitsu's faulty system.
I do think much more training is needed if powers are to be given to DWP.
The police are too short staffed to deal with every case of benefit fraud.
They won’t be ‘trawling’ exactly. The Bill requires all banks and building societies to provide, every four weeks, details of the financial transactions of anyone in receipt of state benefits, including pensions and non-means tested disability payments. .
The will then be analysed by AI, and anomalies flagged to DWP for investigation.
At present, the government say they won’t be asking for account details from those in receipt of non-means tested benefits, but if they never intend to, there is no reason to include them in the legislation.
It’s a massive invasion of privacy for those in receipt of benefits, and the proverbial hammer (in this case a very expensive one) to crack a nut.
Exactly, AGA.
I am not a member of the Conservative Party DAR. I am a supporter. You may choose to see it as ‘extreme’. Not everyone agrees with that. I have not pretended that any of this is about me but you do like an opportunity to hurl an insult don’t you? And by the way the Bill is just that - not law.
There is benefit fraud and I expect the DWP to investigate. I doubt they will be trawling through everyone's bank accounts as they don't have enough staff to do that.
They will only investigate if they suspect someone is benefitting illegally.
The problems in the Post Office were caused by Fujitsu's faulty system.
I do think much more training is needed if powers are to be given to DWP.
The police are too short staffed to deal with every case of benefit fraud.
along with many other people
This really isn't about you Germanshepherdsmum, so please stop pretending it is. It's about a law, brought in by this government, enabled by its supporters.
Germanshepherdsmum
I’m pleased to say that my dog doesn’t have ‘flees’ (sic). The whole Party is tainted in your opinion . What a sweeping statement. I’m exempted from this slur because you’ve said I’m not a bystander. But I have indeed kept them in power along with many other people .
You're not a bystander, Germanshepherdsmum. As you have told us, you are a committed member of this extreme.
Bystanding is a way of surviving an extreme by going along with what people feel they need to do to fit in. They tell themselves it doesn't count; it's what they must do. And they could be right. As democracy is compromised, so is the freedom to say or do what you feel to be honest.
We are moving out of that bleak period of our history. My hope is that it is okay to speak out against this troubling law.
How does GG research what you intend by a statement you make?
DaisyAnneReturns
Can I politely suggest you look it up, GrannyGravy.
No, sorry you used the quote I would like to know your definition.
Can I politely suggest you look it up, GrannyGravy.
I have always voted Conservative in GE’s and I haven’t got flees.
DaisyAnneRerurns who are you referring to as bystander society , those who vote Conservative or Conservative Party Donors?
I’m pleased to say that my dog doesn’t have ‘flees’ (sic). The whole Party is tainted in your opinion . What a sweeping statement. I’m exempted from this slur because you’ve said I’m not a bystander. But I have indeed kept them in power along with many other people .
Sorry. Last post to Germanshepherdsmum.
No, if you lay down with dogs you get flees. The whole Party is tainted and the "bystander society", that has kept them in power must be complicit.
It’s your responsibility to tell the DWP of any change in circumstances Babamaman. If you look at your bank statements regularly you will know that your declared savings have increased because of accrued interest.
We know that some have been proved to have lied - but you weren’t referring only to those few.
The government does include/has included many who have lied. Or are you now saying that is not true Germanshepherdsmum?
Babamaman
The DWP already looks into your bank accounts! I am being investigated for fraud! By them. They are rude, agressive and it is very very stressful. I am sick with the way they’ve behaved.I’ve had to pay a solicitor - we have had the investigation my Pension Credit has been suspended.
They told me that I could reapply for it!
The accused fraud is because of interest on savings it has tipped over the amount allowed and I didn’t tell them! Definitely not knowingly !
The whole system is scandalous
The DWP is all powerful.
They are rude, agressive and I can’t tell you what it’s doing to me !
It will take a minimum of 6weeks before I hear about the result
Then maybe another 6weeks for the fine/penalty to be announced!
Still very stressful
The DWP already looks into your bank accounts.
They can only do this if there are suspicious circumstances that they become aware of or are brought to there attention. With the changes they will set up systems (who knows how good they will be) that track everything.
The system put into the Post Office was also intended to "catch" benefit fraud, and we have no idea how that worked yet.
I am so sorry this has happened to you Babamaman. It's almost as if they make the benefits systems so complex deliberately.
Why should either the Post Office or the DWP be outside the general law?
The sub postmasters’ accounts were accessible because they were on the PO’s Horizon system. Are you seriously suggesting that the DWP is going to access your bank’s IT system and change the details within your account?
I have been called 'paranoid' for saying so on here, but yes, I am concerned at the idea that people can scrutinise my bank account without a declared and valid reason. I don't care that it is currently unlikely that anyone would do so. The current rules can change very easily, as can the current political system. Allowing access to the accounts of people who are not suspected of anything is opening the door to what could be come an even bigger loss of privacy.
It's not about having 'nothing to hide' either. The Postmasters had nothing to hide. Why haven't we been told why they need to do this? We've seen that those accessing the Postmasters' accounts were able to make changes without their knowledge. What assurances do we have that this wouldn't happen to us?
If they want to know expenditure details for statistical purposes they can carry out a (voluntary and anonymised) research project and pay a representative sample of people to submit details of income and outgoings. Why should someone in a government department be able to see which magazines I subscribe to, where I buy my food (or where I buy my carpets or my knickers for that matter)? I can imagine that there will be statistics published suggesting that pensioners don't 'need' a SP, as X% of them spend money on bingo, or holidays, or Taste The Difference sausages.
I object strongly to this.
The DWP already looks into your bank accounts! I am being investigated for fraud! By them. They are rude, agressive and it is very very stressful. I am sick with the way they’ve behaved.I’ve had to pay a solicitor - we have had the investigation my Pension Credit has been suspended.
They told me that I could reapply for it!
The accused fraud is because of interest on savings it has tipped over the amount allowed and I didn’t tell them! Definitely not knowingly !
The whole system is scandalous
The DWP is all powerful.
They are rude, agressive and I can’t tell you what it’s doing to me !
It will take a minimum of 6weeks before I hear about the result
Then maybe another 6weeks for the fine/penalty to be announced!
Still very stressful
What similarity can there be between a faulty computer system being responsible for sub postmasters being accused of stealing and the investigation of benefits fraud? If the DWP are monitoring bank accounts it will be abundantly clear if income, expenditure and assets are not as stated by the claimant.
You may recall that there was a thread about this Bill a while ago. I said then, and I have said again, that I have read the draft Bill and the other legislation to which it refers. I don’t rely on commentary which suits my political stance - that is where untruths lie. As for calling people names, refer to your own words above ‘lying Tories’, and your description of my words as ‘snooty’.
Cabbie21
After seeing the injustice meted out to the SubPostMasters and the extreme distress caused, I am opposed to similar powers being accorded to any other organisation especially the DWP.
It is hard enough being a benefit claimant with all the hurdles to jump to get what they are entitled to, particularly those with disabilities and long term health conditions, without the threat of being treated like the SPMs who had done nothing wrong, were not allowed access to evidence and had to pay for their own legal advice.
As someone who has worked with benefit claimants for over ten years, I am only too aware of the inefficiencies of the DWP, often due to staff cuts, and many wrong decisions subsequently overturned at Tribunal.
Even dealing with them as an executor, fighting for a couple of years over an investigation for an alleged overpayment of Pension Credit of a deceased relative, I have no faith in their competence.
Concern about giving them additional powers, in the light of the Post Office scandal, still not fully resolved, is surely justifiable.
Thank you Cabbie.
Of course you can't see it Germanshepherdsmum. I would never expect you to.
I am no more scaremongering than you are a "bystander" to what the extremists have done. You have often explained on many occasions how much you support them.
However, both the "bystanders" and those who believe in this government's policies do like to call others names, don't they? Perhaps you could point out exactly where I have said anything that is untrue?
Clearly your comment There is no similarity whatsoever" is not a truth.
I have great difficulty in understanding how you can conflate these very different situations. There is no similarity whatsoever. As I said before, scaremongering.
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