What is left about Labour now?

That’s an odd source to use Glorianny, Mark Pack is the President of the Liberal Democrats. I prefer the Sky Polltracker, which summarises all the legitimate polls conducted, and maintains a running voting intentions graph. You can download the app from Sky News.

Casdon

MaizieD

Grantanow

Attlee's government was not Far Left. He declined to abolish the public schools having been at Haileybury himself and stopped short of nationalising industries that were not specified in the manifesto. The initiative for the NHS did not originate with Attlee but from Beverage and the other major reform, free secondary education, originated with Butler in the National government. Labour introduced bread rationing after WW2 and maintained an austerity policy for several years.

Well, TBH, Grantanow, we've never managed to extract a definition of 'far left' from those who use the term. So one can only guess at how they would define that Attlee government. I just used it in a speculative fashion.

It's difficult to discuss politics without a shared understanding of how terms are used.

To me the far left are perhaps better described as the radical left. They are idealists and purists, not realists or pragmatists, and believe that the pursuit of a socialist agenda can only be achieved through radical policy making, not through an incremental approach. To achieve the ultimate aim of an equal society they disregard the impact on individuals in pursuit of equality. That’s my personal take on it though, I haven’t used somebody else’s words.
I’d be interested to see how other people interpret this too. Do you want to start by giving us yours?

"an incremental approach"
Isn't that the trickle-down policy we have seen for the last 13 years? Look how successful that's been
"The rich get rich and the poor get poorer"

So is it far left to think that the bedroom tax should be abolished?
That the third child restriction should be lifted?

MayBee70

Just remind me how many seats Corbyn lost at the last election?

Why on earth do you insist on bringing Corbyn into this? The man has gone. He isn't even a Labour MP now, although that could pose problems if he decides to stand as an independent because he has always been regarded as a good constituency MP.
Just because Corbyn didn't win it is no indication that Starmer will. His personal popularity is very low.

Here's the latest summary of the polls showing voter intention. Both the LP and the Tories have gained support in 6 of the polls. www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voting-intention-opinion-poll-scorecard/
Which may be nice for the LP, but you have to wonder who on earth has returned to voting for this shambles of a government, and will people continue to do so?

MaizieD

Grantanow

Attlee's government was not Far Left. He declined to abolish the public schools having been at Haileybury himself and stopped short of nationalising industries that were not specified in the manifesto. The initiative for the NHS did not originate with Attlee but from Beverage and the other major reform, free secondary education, originated with Butler in the National government. Labour introduced bread rationing after WW2 and maintained an austerity policy for several years.

Well, TBH, Grantanow, we've never managed to extract a definition of 'far left' from those who use the term. So one can only guess at how they would define that Attlee government. I just used it in a speculative fashion.

It's difficult to discuss politics without a shared understanding of how terms are used.

To me the far left are perhaps better described as the radical left. They are idealists and purists, not realists or pragmatists, and believe that the pursuit of a socialist agenda can only be achieved through radical policy making, not through an incremental approach. To achieve the ultimate aim of an equal society they disregard the impact on individuals in pursuit of equality. That’s my personal take on it though, I haven’t used somebody else’s words.
I’d be interested to see how other people interpret this too. Do you want to start by giving us yours?

Grantanow, it’s going to take a long time and money to begin to re-build the mess Labour will face if/when they win the next election.
Grany and others like them don’t want Labour in. They want chaos

I want to see a Labour government under Starmer but I think they need to start planning to stay in power for at least ten years to clear up the Tory mess. If Starmer is half as good as Blair there is a fair chance of some improvements.

I would like to let them get on with planning and tell us nearer to the date of the election what's available - as far as they can know - and what they plan to do, with a promise update when they have been able to have a drains-up and discovered what lies beneath the Tory rhetoric.

If Starmer is "unseated" I would not vote for them or to aid them to power. Not because Starmer is so wonderful, he isn't. But then I'm only looking for a steady hand and a government run professionally. I do not want a party which constantly changes its leadership. We/I have had enough of that.

What would you most like to see politicians delivering after the next election?

How about reinstating our NHS as the fully public service it was always intended to be?

That’s top of our list here at We Own It.

We Own It has a petition you can sign.

We want to see our NHS reinstated as a fully public service. As it was intended to be when it was set up back in 1948. A service that everyone can be proud of. The best thing this country ever created.

That’s what Keir Starmer must do, will he?

That’s if he is not unseated by then.

Never managed to extract really? You make discussion on GN sound like a visit to a very poor dentist.

Actually, it has about the same ratio of pleasure to pain at times.

Grantanow

Attlee's government was not Far Left. He declined to abolish the public schools having been at Haileybury himself and stopped short of nationalising industries that were not specified in the manifesto. The initiative for the NHS did not originate with Attlee but from Beverage and the other major reform, free secondary education, originated with Butler in the National government. Labour introduced bread rationing after WW2 and maintained an austerity policy for several years.

Well, TBH, Grantanow, we've never managed to extract a definition of 'far left' from those who use the term. So one can only guess at how they would define that Attlee government. I just used it in a speculative fashion.

It's difficult to discuss politics without a shared understanding of how terms are used.

Attlee's government was not Far Left. He declined to abolish the public schools having been at Haileybury himself and stopped short of nationalising industries that were not specified in the manifesto. The initiative for the NHS did not originate with Attlee but from Beverage and the other major reform, free secondary education, originated with Butler in the National government. Labour introduced bread rationing after WW2 and maintained an austerity policy for several years.

Just remind me how many seats Corbyn lost at the last election?

Casdon

You assumed I thought nationalisation was a far left policy. I don’t believe that is the case, in time and for some utilities that is right and will ultimately happen I’m sure. Pragmatism about models for different models for utilities and reforming them is the right way forward. Most important is the setting and maintenance of high standards, improvement of services, public accountability and financial probity. Starmer and Reeves both want that. I’m pleased they are pragmatic rather than being over ambitious and promising to deliver things which aren’t achievable in one term of government. They are absolutely right that they shouldn’t over-commit resources until they fully understand the huge financial challenges they will be facing.
I’m sorry, but you are rubbishing the leadership of the Labour Party at every possible opportunity. You aren’t trying to understand their thought processes, rather because they aren’t promising a left wing agenda you have switched off completely to the sense and appropriateness of a pragmatic agenda, despite the fact that the country is in a terrible state at the moment. Fortunately for the country though, other people can see that this is the best way forward to get back to an even keel.

I think I understand Starmer's thought processes too well.
He has a long history of deception and secrecy. Including things like joining the Trilateral Commission without notifying either the Labour party or Parliament. declassifieduk.org/keir-starmer-joined-secretive-cia-linked-group-while-serving-in-corbyns-shadow-cabinet/
He has failed to condemn Israel's policies in Palestine, in spite of substantial evidence and confuses anti-Israel stance with anti-semitism.
But that isn't the main problem. The main problem is his insistence on dominating the party, refusing to listen to local people, throwing aside successful LP members , in favour of people who suit LP head office and losing support because of that. And unless he recognises this is a problem he may very well lose seats in the next GE

Both Starmer and Streeting said they want to outsource more of the NHS to private companies and urged the government to speed up outsourcing. So there is no question that labour is threatening the NHS.

Casdon

You assumed I thought nationalisation was a far left policy. I don’t believe that is the case, in time and for some utilities that is right and will ultimately happen I’m sure. Pragmatism about models for different models for utilities and reforming them is the right way forward. Most important is the setting and maintenance of high standards, improvement of services, public accountability and financial probity. Starmer and Reeves both want that. I’m pleased they are pragmatic rather than being over ambitious and promising to deliver things which aren’t achievable in one term of government. They are absolutely right that they shouldn’t over-commit resources until they fully understand the huge financial challenges they will be facing.
I’m sorry, but you are rubbishing the leadership of the Labour Party at every possible opportunity. You aren’t trying to understand their thought processes, rather because they aren’t promising a left wing agenda you have switched off completely to the sense and appropriateness of a pragmatic agenda, despite the fact that the country is in a terrible state at the moment. Fortunately for the country though, other people can see that this is the best way forward to get back to an even keel.

Suppose you’ve heard all this before just saying

Setting of high standards? Throwing left wing and Jewish people out of the Labour Party those who are anti racist and defend the Palestinian people. Starmer saying if you support Palestine, you are anti Semitic he is weaponising anti semitism

The Forde report which found a hierarchy of racism in Starmer's party with over 100 recommendations not been implemented nor has Starmer even replied to Forde.

Starmer lies and changes his mind whichever way wind is blowing he will be the same in government, call that pragmatic?

Same polices as Tories

70 economists have written to him asks him to reconsider his stance about not taxing the richest, as the poor will continue to suffer.

You wonder why people don't like Starmer don’t want to vote labour

Grany. How did you feel about Corbyns reluctance to blame Russia for the Salisbury poisonings? Given that you seem to want to rake up all sorts of things against people.

But so what Grany, Rupert Murdoch has a summer party every year, and invites a huge range of high profile figures? Are you insinuating again?

Grany

Ilovecheese

Didn't Starmer go to Rupert Murdoch's summer party?

Yes he was associating with him when he was DPP

Wasn’t he instrumental in convicting Rebekah Brooke’s in the phone hacking scandal?

Casdon

Grany

Ilovecheese

Didn't Starmer go to Rupert Murdoch's summer party?

Yes he was associating with him when he was DPP

And? It would have been really strange for him not to have been present. There were loads of other politicians there as well, together with loads of celebrities.
dorseteye.com/guess-who-was-spotted-at-rupert-murdochs-summer-party/

This was in 2008

Grany

Ilovecheese

Didn't Starmer go to Rupert Murdoch's summer party?

Yes he was associating with him when he was DPP

And? It would have been really strange for him not to have been present. There were loads of other politicians there as well, together with loads of celebrities.
dorseteye.com/guess-who-was-spotted-at-rupert-murdochs-summer-party/

Ilovecheese

Didn't Starmer go to Rupert Murdoch's summer party?

Yes he was associating with him when he was DPP

You assumed I thought nationalisation was a far left policy. I don’t believe that is the case, in time and for some utilities that is right and will ultimately happen I’m sure. Pragmatism about models for different models for utilities and reforming them is the right way forward. Most important is the setting and maintenance of high standards, improvement of services, public accountability and financial probity. Starmer and Reeves both want that. I’m pleased they are pragmatic rather than being over ambitious and promising to deliver things which aren’t achievable in one term of government. They are absolutely right that they shouldn’t over-commit resources until they fully understand the huge financial challenges they will be facing.
I’m sorry, but you are rubbishing the leadership of the Labour Party at every possible opportunity. You aren’t trying to understand their thought processes, rather because they aren’t promising a left wing agenda you have switched off completely to the sense and appropriateness of a pragmatic agenda, despite the fact that the country is in a terrible state at the moment. Fortunately for the country though, other people can see that this is the best way forward to get back to an even keel.

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

DaisyAnneReturns

Glorianny

The Labour conference this year will host events sponsored by weapons manufacturers, a spyware firm linked to the CIA, fossil fuel companies and private health care providers. How can this party deliver the change it promises? It is essentially the Tory party of the past re-imagined and named Labour.

Labour was basically "cuckooed" by an influx of new members into the "home" of its then left-of-centre voters. This group then tried to push the far-left verging on communist drugs that definitely gave a "high" to its followers.

It could have stuck to this, but the members decided to move back the more centre-left it previously stood for. This doesn't mean it is no longer left-wing. The policies are just less dictatorial than the new influx wanted.

Interestingly, we can see where the power lies in each party as the Conservatives went through the same thing, but the "cuckoos" were the 147 MPs elected for the first time in 2010. They were majority pro-Brexit and far-right. They literally pushed the one-nation Tories out of the nest. So far there is no sign of them being able to reclaim the party.

So once again a whole diatribe about the "far-left" which apparently controlled the party and an assertion that the party is still left -wing but with no actual evidence. Unfortunately I can see nothing in any policy being presented which aligns with left wing beliefs.
Perhaps DAR you could explain what exactly makes the Labour party left wing now, because be damned if I can find anything.
The policies are not "less dictatorial" they are less anything which supports the poor, which protects the NHS, which supports non-profit public ownership, or which protects employees. Perhaps you can educate me.
What most people seem to be saying is that Starmer won't release policies because the Tories will enact them now. An ideal time then to produce something radical they can't copy.

Regarding your last paragraph, the two suppositions you make don’t equate to each other Glorianny. Not declaring what the specific policies are, yet, is ensuring that Labour are maintaining a comfortable majority in the polls. Declaring a radical policy is the diametric opposite of what will work to maintain that majority. People don’t want radical - apart that is from the further left and further right, who both want radical, just different radical. The 80% in the middle want moderate.

Once again statements with no evidence. The majority of the UK public including Conservative voters want public ownership of trains, water and energy. I assume you would consider this a far left policy.
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/10/19/most-britons-believe-trains-water-and-energy-shoul
The question you should be asking is why doesn't Starmer? (Perhaps because of the connections with companies he is building)

Why do you think public ownership of utilities is specifically a far left policy Glorianny? Why do you think that in the future it won’t be considered? Why haven’t you read and understood what Starmer has actually said about this rather than putting your interpretation on his words? Why haven’t you considered the Welsh models where we already have a Labour Government? Your determination to try to rubbish the Labour Party because it isn’t doing what you prefer does you no credit.

Why can't you answer a question Casdon
But here goes on yours.
Rachel Reeves has said they won't and is more concerned with "balancing the books"
Starmer (surprise surprise ) is sitting firmly on the fence and apparently "being pragmatic"
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/louise-haigh-rachel-reeves-aslef-andy-mcdonald-angela-rayner-b2130543.html

MPs want to nationalise water, but the Utility ompanies are uniting to lobby Labour www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/30/labour-mps-urge-keir-starmer-to-commit-to-nationalising-thames-water

I am not "rubbishing" the LP I am trying to discover exactly what policies are being kept that might be reasonably considered as helping the people Labour is supposed to support. And all people on this thread do is tell me how wrong I am without producing any evidence to back up their assertions.

Ilovecheese

Didn't Starmer go to Rupert Murdoch's summer party?

Are you suggesting Starmer should refuse an invitation from a businessman? I’m no friend of Murdoch but so far as I’m aware, he isn’t a Jeffrey Epstein, though no doubt he’s fraternised with him. Dirty world, business but I can’t see the benefit in Starmer sulking and refusing to talk with Murdoch

The Labour Party constituency members.and the Trade Unions, decided, by an overwhelming vote, at the last Labour Party Conference to vote for electoral reform, to change our voting system from First Past The Post to Proportional Representation and make the UK a democracy

Currently there are only two undemocratic countries in Europe - the UK and Belarus, who both elect their governments by FPTP.

All other countries in Europe are democracies where governments are elected by PR.

So what did Kier Starmer say when asked if this policy would be in the Labour Party manifesto?

"It's not a priority"!!!!!